organic Organic Gardening...No Till...Forum?

Busy said:
What's the difference between decaying organic matter that produces a nitrogen molecule, and that same molecule of nitrogen after the fact?

 
The organic matter does not leave salts nor pollute the water table like chemical fertilizers!

Busy said:
Bottom line is both methods work. But I can promise you that if diesel was still a dollar a gallon, "no till" would never have happened.

 
Why kill the soil food web when it's not necessary? A healthy rhizosphere does the work for you so why make it more work by killing it, feeding the plants chemicals which then kills what life the food web has started to create and then you do it all over again. It's a never ending battle. No till has become popular for the reasons I mentioned not the price of diesel; at least to the average person who wants to grow organically.
Why don't you look into the work of Dr. Ingham and others who are soil scientists not commercial farmers.

Busy said:
 

Does a beer can crush more than an already crushed beer can ? :P
What that has to do with soil science is beyond me. :rolleyes:
 
millworkman said:
Only if you till it in. If you place it on top and use it as a mulch you will be fine. The nitrogen robbing myth has been proven wrong numerous times.
Could you provide some references for me to read up on it?  I don't see why bacterial feeding would change that much, but am the first to admit I'm usually wrong so I'd love to learn more. 
 
Monkey Hunter said:
Could you provide some references for me to read up on it?  I don't see why bacterial feeding would change that much, but am the first to admit I'm usually wrong so I'd love to learn more. 
It's only going to rob the nitrogen from a very close proximity to what is being broken down. Quite a few of us use stuff that isn't composted as our top mulch.
 
Busy said:
...But when you run a chisel plow and loosen the soil you guarantee that when you get a good rain you won't end up with gravitational water that drowns your roots out.... I understand the desire for quality food. And I am not a fan of pesticides/GMO....But I can promise you that if diesel was still a dollar a gallon, "no till" would never have happened.
Beyond the reasons point out by Proud Marine Dad, your post illustrates a couple of the key reasons people are moving away from the traditional ag-business model to a more sustainable one.  A lot of people don't even like the term organic anymore because of how muddled it's become.  Organic agricultullre originally wasn't about producing a "higher" quality of food as you put it.  The goal was to produce food in a sustainable model that doesn't deplete the land through the agricultural practices.  We have clear historic examples of the problems with typical agriculture, the desertification of vast areas like the middle east, Morocco and without drastic change the American mid-west.
 
Without addressing the issues related to our current lifestyle, including our dependence on oil despite alternative technologies, we're only going to increase the instability in the weather patterns, creating more issues to be solved.  I don't have faith that humans will be able to come up with a better solution then those that already exist in nature.  So to me, working within the ecosystem in a permaculture model with a focus on biointensive food production makes the most sense in terms of a resilient system that is truly sustainable.  Sustainable in the sense that in will support as many people as the land can support without damaging the ecosystem.  In that sense I don't feel our current chem-ag model is in any way sustainable as it relies on gas and petroleum as an essential cog to keep the machine running, as oil prices increase so does the cost of our food.  So much so that many can't afford to eat real food and instead have to eat highly processed fast "food".  Anything that can be left out for over a year without moulding really shouldn't be called food...
StupidJerk said:
It's only going to rob the nitrogen from a very close proximity to what is being broken down. Quite a few of us use stuff that isn't composted as our top mulch.
 
True in theory, I prefer to rely on more then theory's based on personal experience though as too many people have too widely varying experiences.  I'll look into it more myself, generally though I've yet to be convinced by no-till approaches.  I see too much value in aerating the bed and managing nutrients through testing and adding compost.
 
The beer can thing was straight forward I thought. Saying that tilled soil packs more than compressed soil is pretty obvious right? I mean if it's already packed down it wouldn't readily compress that much right? And yes being a commercial farmer I do lean towards things that work on a large scale I suppose. But farmers aren't evil my friend. And just because something is organic, don't think that it is guaranteed safe. I'm sure you know about nematodes and such right? I just feel like there is a lot of pressure for people to hate anything not "organic". I am familiar with botany. I mean when you get right down to laws of thermodynamics it's all just a chase for energy right? And the chemicals we put down for fertilizer are the ones the plant is looking for anyways. And we can guarantee a proper macro/micro ratio is available when it is necessary. And those chemicals would be present in a self sustained soil system too right? It's the pesticides that grow progressively stronger due to gmo resistant pests that hurt the water table. Greenpeace has a video explaining it, and I agree with them. If you are into a self sustaining soil system, cool! But if you just want to grow healthy plants there is more than one way to skin a cat. Do you have a self-contained ecosystem to produce your dog food? Organic means a molecule that contains carbon. Not "great stuff". Once again, not saying it doesn't work. But when the Indians planted corn with a fish, that fish turned into the same chemicals we put down.

Monkey Hunter said:
Beyond the reasons point out by Proud Marine Dad, your post illustrates a couple of the key reasons people are moving away from the traditional ag-business model to a more sustainable one.  A lot of people don't even like the term organic anymore because of how muddled it's become.  Organic agricultullre originally wasn't about producing a "higher" quality of food as you put it.  The goal was to produce food in a sustainable model that doesn't deplete the land through the agricultural practices.  We have clear historic examples of the problems with typical agriculture, the desertification of vast areas like the middle east, Morocco and without drastic change the American mid-west.
 
 
We've been farming for over a hundred years. We have an aquifer fed creek. Everything is just great. And when I say quality, I mean safe and natural. And our soil is hardly depleted. I just want people to understand the difference between fertilizer and pesticides and gmo. The latter is what's nasty. The former is the end result of an organic practice anyway. I don't hate organics. I just think there is misleading info out there making people scared of the wrong things.
 
Wow.  I sure appreciate both sides that we're hearing.  I'm not totally convinced that "no till" is the way for me to go.  I also notice that some people seem more concerned with microbial life than with the final harvest.  Pollution aside for the moment, is there any good reason not to plow, and use chemical fertilizers if this method is as effective in producing a bountiful harvest as organic/no till methods? 
 
Busy said:
Do you have a self-contained ecosystem to produce your dog food? Organic means a molecule that contains carbon. Not "great stuff". Once again, not saying it doesn't work. But when the Indians planted corn with a fish, that fish turned into the same chemicals we put down.
Never meant to imply farmer's were evil, evil and good are too simplistic to be of much use in my mind. Like trying to cram all the shades of grey into either black or white, it loses all meaning.  Farmer's are no different from anyone in our society, we're taking advantage of the available resources to reproduce as much as possible.  Just like bunnies or any other critter out there.  The difference is we're destabilizing vast sections of the planet, arguably the entire ecosphere.  If anything, what makes us "evil" is we're aware of  this and aren't willing to take the necessary steps to mitigate mass loss of life.  Look up the UN's predictions for the next 50-100 years as far as population and food security if you want a chilling wake up call, especially considering we're flying past the old predictions based on earlier models of climate change.
 
In a self contained ecosystem the dog would be fulfilling a role by eating it's food, just like any animal in a natural system.
 
Of course the plant is absorbing the same chemical either way, through fish or petro-based fertilizer.  The difference is the amount of energy/resources expanded to provide that chemical and how well the ecosystem can handle/absorb that impact.
 
And Proud Marine Dad, are you sure seaweed extract doesn't leave salts?

Roguejim said:
Wow.  I sure appreciate both sides that we're hearing.  I'm not totally convinced that "no till" is the way for me to go.  I also notice that some people seem more concerned with microbial life than with the final harvest.  Pollution aside for the moment, is there any good reason not to plow, and use chemical fertilizers if this method is as effective in producing a bountiful harvest as organic/no till methods? 
Both methods work. While some will say that chemical fertilizers pollute, I disagree and enjoy the level of control you get. But it's all about the individual. What is your goal?
 
Roguejim said:
  I also notice that some people seem more concerned with microbial life than with the final harvest. 
The two are related. Have you seen Pepper Guru's plants? I dare you to try and grow something as large and healthy with chemical fertilizers. It won't happen!
 
Pollution aside for the moment, is there any good reason not to plow, and use chemical fertilizers if this method is as effective in producing a bountiful harvest as organic/no till methods?
It is not as effective and it requires a lot more work as I said above. I guess if people want to just feed their plants Miracle-Gro then hey, have at it.
Many of us on here prefer to grow things the way nature intended them to be grown. As I have said before and I will say it again here, take a look at the Rain Forest or any forest for that matter. Nature is the only fertilization that those lush plants get, period! The plants get all their nutrients from the bacteria and arthropods in the soil food web that feed them. That's what I strive for and if you want to do it another way be my guest. I prefer to use nature rather than chemical salts.
 
Monkey Hunter said:
Never meant to imply farmer's were evil, evil and good are too simplistic to be of much use in my mind. Like trying to cram all the shades of grey into either black or white, it loses all meaning.  Farmer's are no different from anyone in our society, we're taking advantage of the available resources to reproduce as much as possible.  Just like bunnies or any other critter out there.  The difference is we're destabilizing vast sections of the planet, arguably the entire ecosphere.  If anything, what makes us "evil" is we're aware of  this and aren't willing to take the necessary steps to mitigate mass loss of life.  Look up the UN's predictions for the next 50-100 years as far as population and food security if you want a chilling wake up call, especially considering we're flying past the old predictions based on earlier models of climate change.
 
In a self contained ecosystem the dog would be fulfilling a role by eating it's food, just like any animal in a natural system.
 
Of course the plant is absorbing the same chemical either way, through fish or petro-based fertilizer.  The difference is the amount of energy/resources expanded to provide that chemical and how well the ecosystem can handle/absorb that impact.
What and how are we doing damage? Like I said my soil is A-1. I don't use pesticides or GMO. Over 100 years and no signs of slowing down. Everything in balance. The U.N. must not have seen my operation. No death chemicals lurking in water or anything. Most of that world hunger scare is driven by Monsanto. Look into it.
 
Proud Marine Dad said:
Where did I mention seaweed extracts?  :rolleyes:  
Cute rolling eyes. I thought organics don't lead to salts? I can see that you guys are fairly close minded. Really not what I expected here.....
Proud Marine Dad said:
The two are related. Have you seen Pepper Guru's plants? I dare you to try and grow something as large and healthy with chemical fertilizers. It won't happen!
 
Challenge excepted.
 
Roguejim said:
Wow.  I sure appreciate both sides that we're hearing.  I'm not totally convinced that "no till" is the way for me to go.  I also notice that some people seem more concerned with microbial life than with the final harvest.  Pollution aside for the moment, is there any good reason not to plow, and use chemical fertilizers if this method is as effective in producing a bountiful harvest as organic/no till methods? 
I don't really understand what you're asking; did you mean "is the a reason not to plow/use chem ferts if this works as well as organic/no till methods?
In general the two can be seen like this:
 
Commercial, chemical agriculture (or gardening on our scale) is easier to achieve high yields of produce, depending on the studies you believe possibly of equal quality.
 
Organic, no-till, permaculture, etc are all designed to build up biodiversity in the ecosystem through intentional cultivation techniques.  The idea being that the more diversity in the ecosystem (bacterial, fungal, animal, plant, insect, etc), the more resilient it becomes and the more stable it's produce.  The problem is it involves more work, for a less aesthetic produce, the produce also becoming regional as different areas will support different food webs necessitating different diets.
 
In practical terms as a gardener it means: with chem ferts/pesticides it's a minimum of work but you'll be buying them year after year for the rest of your life as your garden becomes dependent on them.
 
With organics you'll be doing more work, but over the years the garden will to a point reduce issues like fungal/bacterial infections, weeds, etc.
 
Busy said:
Cute rolling eyes. I thought organics don't lead to salts? I can see that you guys are fairly close minded. Really not what I expected here.....
Well excuse me I was unaware that chemical fertilizers used sea salt in them.
Maybe you can educate us simpletons on the chemical nature of salts?
 
Busy said:
What and how are we doing damage? Like I said my soil is A-1. I don't use pesticides or GMO. Over 100 years and no signs of slowing down. Everything in balance. The U.N. must not have seen my operation. No death chemicals lurking in water or anything. Most of that world hunger scare is driven by Monsanto. Look into it.
Why's the price of food skyrocketing if the current model works?  Why are we getting more 500 year storms in a 10 years then we've seen in the 400 years leading up to the industrial revolution?  If you're using tractors to till, you're part of an unsustainable model based on petroleum, the least sustainable fuel we have (i.e. the most damaging).
 
You're saying Monsanto caused the draught and flooding that destroyed a significant portion of the worlds grain crops last year?  Not the rise in our planets temperature effecting our weather patterns?  You're saying Monsanto causes an average of 9 lbs of top soil erosion for every lbs of food produced?  The holland marsh in Ontario has been decimated by traditional agricultural practices, in areas having lost up to 30ft of top soil.  These are the problems associnated with chem-ag models, nothing overtly deadly or menacing about it.  After repeated generations the slow degradation leads to the eventual destabilization of the ecosystem and collapse.  Like the middle east, or Morocco's Kiff region, or America's mid-west...  It's not fortune telling to look at the past, recognize we're doing the same thing and extrapolate that we'll have the same results.
 
Busy said:
Cute rolling eyes. I thought organics don't lead to salts? I can see that you guys are fairly close minded. Really not what I expected here.....

Challenge excepted.
You will find every way of doing things here. People on all sides as well as those who straddle the fence such as myself.
 
Busy said:
Challenge excepted.
While I don't doubt you can achieve great results with chemical fertilizers and lot of time and money, just know that Pepper Guru did this using compost and homemade fish fertilizer:

6089139494_9992ccf026_z.jpg


When should we expect to see your pic besting this?
 
Busy said:
 I can see that you guys are fairly close minded. Really not what I expected here.....
I'm not sure how I'm close minded, I acknowledge that chem ferts will do equally well, in fact I said it was easier to achieve high yields with them.  I personally don't use them because of the environmental impact of them, as you've presented nothing to dissuade or change that belief (in fact you've entirely avoided discussing the impact of petroleum dependent agriculture) but that doesn't make me close minded.
 
Busy said:
Cute rolling eyes. I thought organics don't lead to salts? I can see that you guys are fairly close minded. Really not what I expected here.....

 
They are not the same salts! If they were there would be no need for Cannabis growers to have to flush their plants to avoid nutrient lock-out which does not occur using organic fertilizers.
 
For what it's worth, nagacanario is growing +7ft plants in 5gal buckets using MG potting soil and Floranova ferts.  Check out his youtube vids.  His harvest is huge.
 
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