from what i understand, hardwood chips deplete the soil of nitrogen faster than soft wood chips. BUT, last year we tilled in a giant pile of mulch and this was grown directly on top of it
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organic Organic Gardening...No Till...Forum?
- Thread starter Roguejim
- Start date
I can see both points of the argument here. Even though I'm growing extremely small scale, I felt the need to till because my soil is extremely compacted clay. Honestly, after a month I saw exponentially more worms planting in the tilled soil than untilled areas I was digging even deeper in for non garden purposes.
Although maybe that was more due to the compost I tilled in than the actual tilling. All I'm saying is what works for one person may not for another.
Different strokes for different folks.
Although maybe that was more due to the compost I tilled in than the actual tilling. All I'm saying is what works for one person may not for another.
Different strokes for different folks.
millworkman said:
You're right about the first year mixing, and the 14-14-14 Osmocote he uses. Apparently, he sees value in mixing in the wood chips though for reasons of porosity, permeability, and improved fertility of the soil. I hope he doesn't mind my sharing this info from the PM he sent. He also included this link:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61900856/Original_Lemieux_Paper.pdf
Yes, and yes—+1 on what both Noah and Jim said. Part of what I've learned is empirical...from just thrashing around and making every mistake possible, and learning from my mistakes. And quite a lot of it came from Prof. Lemieux's work that Jim just linked to...I can't emphasize enough how important the ideas in that paper are—I believe 3/5King hit on several of them when he was discussing the importance of fungal action in soil building. I'm not as clear on the exact biologic action Lemieux and 3/5King are talking about, but I can vouch for its effectiveness....
The most important points in building forest type soils, as I see it, are that you are building soil for the long term. Even Osmocote, Miracle Gro, animal manure, fish emulsion, and seaweed extract, as incredibly effective as they are, only work for one season, then you need to add more. Forest soil lasts for years and years, and is the way nature builds river valley soils. Even compost is a one-year thing. In building forest soil, the decomposition takes place in the ground—a very important point.
Please everyone take time to read the PDF Jim linked to above....
The most important points in building forest type soils, as I see it, are that you are building soil for the long term. Even Osmocote, Miracle Gro, animal manure, fish emulsion, and seaweed extract, as incredibly effective as they are, only work for one season, then you need to add more. Forest soil lasts for years and years, and is the way nature builds river valley soils. Even compost is a one-year thing. In building forest soil, the decomposition takes place in the ground—a very important point.
Please everyone take time to read the PDF Jim linked to above....
As you said above, the mixing of the wood chips with the soil is to improve the porosity and permeability of the soil. My soil has very high clay content, as in my country garden, or is 100% clay, as in my home garden. Also, even in soil with good porosity and permeability, such as sand, the Laval Univ. paper recommends mixing the top few inches, so that the soil microbes can begin working on the wood chips right away. Laying the wood chips directly on the surface of the ground without mixing is effective, but it may take several years for the good things to happen...
I don't think the initial mixing or not mixing of the wood chips and soil is as critical as is the not tilling in the subsequent seasons. There is a stratification of the biota that takes place, and you don't want to disturb that...
I don't think the initial mixing or not mixing of the wood chips and soil is as critical as is the not tilling in the subsequent seasons. There is a stratification of the biota that takes place, and you don't want to disturb that...
Interesting paper, don't have time to finish it right now but I'm really enjoying reading it as I hope to incorporate it into my garden next year. They do suggest mixing in the top layer, but in the fall because "Added to the soil, this material, rich in carbon and poor in nitrogen, may favor nitrogen immobilization by the microorgnisms during the first few months.". So I'll begin adding chipped wood in the fall, when the cover crops are planted but I still prefer the bio-intensive method developed by John Jeavons as it's been the most productive system I've seen to date.
Thanks for looking at the paper...I'll check out Jeavons for sure.
I was thinking the same the other day. Some people really do have to till their gardens every year, orange clay soil comes to mind, unless they transform their soil with tons of compost.Peptacular said:
As for no till in general, i have read in other forums that productivity declines by the third year. Supposedly their soil compacted too much, so they ended up tilling again.
Maybe that's an idea, peal back the layer of leaves and till every second or third year in the month of March(?) But return that layer of leaves and add myco's to get the microbial action started again. It probably wouldn't hurt to till under a portion of those leaves at the same time.
Hi Jetchuka...I believe the idea with the wood chips, the orange clay (You're talking about my country garden there!), and the no-tilling ever, is that as long as one avoids walking on the beds or driving a tractor across them, that the porosity and permeability are maintained and even improved by the biologic action taking place in the soil, mostly that of earthworms—Geologists call the effect "bioturbation" because the constant agitation and even overturning of the sediments by various animals prevents it from becoming compacted and stratified...
Here's a pik of the soil in my three-year old bed at my house. This very loose, "spongy", and extremely fertile soil has not been disturbed or amended since 2011. The natural surface sediment in this area is very dense, dark brown, alluvial clay...It appears and behaves very much like 90% cacao dark chocolate...All I do is "re-dress" the mulch layer from time to time with fresh hardwood chips:
These plants are growing in the above bed: 6 of Seven Pot Yellow (THSC) and 6 of NagaBrain (romy6):
Here's a pik of the soil in my three-year old bed at my house. This very loose, "spongy", and extremely fertile soil has not been disturbed or amended since 2011. The natural surface sediment in this area is very dense, dark brown, alluvial clay...It appears and behaves very much like 90% cacao dark chocolate...All I do is "re-dress" the mulch layer from time to time with fresh hardwood chips:
These plants are growing in the above bed: 6 of Seven Pot Yellow (THSC) and 6 of NagaBrain (romy6):
Nice plants windchicken. Do you use a drip watering system since they are mounded so much?
Busy said:
Glad to have you here on the forum. I stay away from pesticides but use both organic and chemical fertilizers. I'm looking forward to seeing your plants and harvests.
Proud Marine Dad said:
Thanks Mike! I only water about once a week, with a regular water hose and spray head. The mulch layer is very thick....That seems to be what makes the difference...
windchicken said:Hi Jetchuka...I believe the idea with the wood chips, the orange clay (You're talking about my country garden there!), and the no-tilling ever, is that as long as one avoids walking on the beds or driving a tractor across them, that the porosity and permeability are maintained and even improved by the biologic action taking place in the soil, mostly that of earthworms—Geologists call the effect "bioturbation" because the constant agitation and even overturning of the sediments by various animals prevents it from becoming compacted and stratified...
Here's a pik of the soil in my three-year old bed at my house. This very loose, "spongy", and extremely fertile soil has not been disturbed or amended since 2011. The natural surface sediment in this area is very dense, dark brown, alluvial clay...It appears and behaves very much like 90% cacao dark chocolate...All I do is "re-dress" the mulch layer from time to time with fresh hardwood chips:
These plants are growing in the above bed: 6 of Seven Pot Yellow (THSC) and 6 of NagaBrain (romy6):
Gary, that bed with the two long mounds appears to be about 6-8' wide. Is this correct?
Hey Jim...That's about right...They are way too close, though...That's all the room I have in that yard, unfortunately. By September or so these plants will be impenetrable...I'll be crawling on my hands and knees to get through that valley between the mounds...In the big country garden where there's plenty of room, the chinense plants are spaced every 3 feet within the beds, but there is 8 feet of space between the beds...
Awesome. I figured you would have a lot of runoff but with a lot of mulch that would keep it more in place.windchicken said:
Pepper-Guru
Extreme Member
man you really shred that stuff up. each piece of mulch around an 1/8x1/2 inch long? bet that breaks down nice and fast. when you dig down is there just mycelium strands going everywhere?
Proud Marine Dad said:
Mike...You are exactly right—If I don't shape the beds just right, the mulch acts very much like a thatched roof, shedding just about any water I put on it...It's hard to see in the above photo, but I'm very careful to leave little "bowled-out" areas around each plant, so that the water will be forced to flow downward into the bed. I've also found that if I make the beds nice and wide on top, with a concave surface, like a shallow trough, that any water that falls on top of the bed can only go straight down into the soil below...
Pepper-Guru said:
That sounds about right, Rich. The pieces aren't really that uniform, though...I guess the largest ones are up to an inch long...
You're right about the white strands in the soil...I feel guilty disturbing it, though, so it's not very often I get to see that...There are probably several hundred earthworms in this bed, too...
millworkman
Extreme Member
What do you do with the plants at the end of the season Gary? Cut em down and leave the root system, pull em out?
The first thing you said—I cut the main stem right above ground level, and leave the root system in the ground...
If I have the space the next season I will plant in between the old stumps, so the old roots can finish returning to the soil...I extended the pilot bed this year for that very purpose...
If I have the space the next season I will plant in between the old stumps, so the old roots can finish returning to the soil...I extended the pilot bed this year for that very purpose...