organic Organic Gardening...No Till...Forum?

millworkman said:
You will find every way of doing things here. People on all sides as well as those who straddle the fence such as myself.
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Agree with this for sure. There aren't many here who are strictly one method. I tend to go towards the more organic methods because of my concern for the environment, but you can certainly get great results from using more chemical dependent methods. With precise control of chemicals you can get awesome results, and if you are a large scale commercial farmer, it is probably going to be more profitable.

Busy, the vast majority of us are hobbyists, so we can afford to spend enough time to compost and mulch our plots properly and be stewards of the land we grow on. I don't know many here that own a tractor that they use to plow their back yard. You are getting a lot of people disagreeing with you because you are going into a thread about no till methods and telling people that they don't work, even though you don't have a clear idea of what those methods are. If you went into a thread about chemical fertilizer use and told people that fish ferts are better, or if you jumped into an aquaponics thread and told people that its just easier to use pre-formulated hydroponic chemical nutes, you could expect similar results.

There are a few people here who are huge proponents of a single method and will argue that method is the best and only method. You are going to get that anywhere, especially on the Internet. You shouldn't categorize everyone on this site as close-minded because of that.
 
Certain fungi decompose matter, this matter is then taken a step further and broken down further into simpler forms by other species of fungi. These fungi create a symbiotic relationship with surrounding plants using sugars provided by the plant to live and flourish (as fungi can not photosynthesis) microbes eat this decomposed matter and excrete useable nutrients that in turn surrounding plants feed off of, grow and flourish. Plants/animals die/defoliate/etc. and thus creates the cycle for a thriving Eco system.

Another fact; tilling the ground destroys this food web (worms, fungi, microbes, soil structure)

Chem. fertz are produced in a form that is directly usable to the plant. In this form, the plant no longer need to release fungi's needed sugars, thus starving this underground Eco system. (Did I forget to mention the mycelium is what gives a good soil it's porous, fluffy structure; is what holds soil together preventing erosion and runoff) The destruction of this symbiotic ecosystem is the root cause of chem. dependence and lifeless, erosive dirt.

The last fact I will leave you with in relation the mycelium is its ability to protect plants from disease, harmful bacteria, drought; mycelium is also the reason that plants/trees/etc are able to share sugars when in need. This has allowed plants to grow in low light situations where photosynthesis is drastically inhibited.

Fungi was around before the dinosaurs; fungi has been around since the beginning of time and survived/flourished through hundreds of millions of years, inheriting the earth when other life forms failed. Even if we continue our ways and continue to destroy the land that gave birth to us, fungi will live on after our early demise and once again inherit the earth. Every other life form has created a symbiotic bond with fungi, it's the only reason anything on this planet survives (in the long run) this is why I choose to create my own symbiotic relationship with it and as much of Mother Nature as I can.

Knowledge is power.
 
this new guyy is an acreage farmer, he farms for profit, most of us here are GARDENERS, there is a difference. he may, or may not raise 100,000 plants at a time, we dote over 250 plants, the biggest gardeners here.

our biggest real "no till" guy here is windchicken, and he gets great results.

you have to look at scale when arguing a point.

handmade cars are artistic and great, but could you build 20,000 a month? no so you use technology.....this same theme applies to large scale farming.

if this new guy uses no pesticide and is gettting great results, we should all be happy for him, pesticides are the real scrourge of the enviroment.
 
 
 
It's only going to rob the nitrogen from a very close proximity to what is being broken down. Quite a few of us use stuff that isn't composted as our top mulch. 
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"Stuff that isn't composted" is a broad category. Wood chips and other things that have a high Carbon to Nitrogen ratio are frequently recommended for use as top mulch. Stuff that is very high in Nitrogen, like fresh grass clippings, is not. The advice not to put greens directly on in-production garden soil comes from what I consider to be reputable sources. 
 
In general, I prefer to only put things on or in the soil that will provide both immediate and lasting benefit, and avoid adding stressors, even minimal ones. If there is some solid evidence out there that applying fresh green matter will benefit my plants, I will change my tune.
 
millworkman said:
Using fresh grass clippings is great for the garden as long as its not a thick mat that will clump. They break down very quick and add a good dose of nitrogen as they do. Who says not to?
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The point of contention is whether green clippings/waste will actually add nitrogen.  In the traditional composting view, they don't, green layers don't add any nitrogen, they act as food for bacteria which decomposes the rest of the material to release it's nitrogen.  So green compost actually creates a net loss of nitrogen unless there's other material for the bacteria to decompose.  I'm reading more about no-till philosophies, so far most direct applications of compost seem to be high carbon to nitrogen layers but I'll gladly correct myself if I'm wrong.
Roguejim said:
 That's what I understand from the movie "Back to Eden".  Of course, they are speaking of wood chips in that movie. 
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I'm just watching "back to eden" now, not a bad movie overall from what I've seen so far.  They did just mention though, at around the 21 minute mark that adding raw material to garden beds will tie up the nitrogen in the soil.  They go on to explain that by  mulching (using mixed leaf and wood chips) it has the proper carbon nitrogen ratio to properly compost.  So by the time it's sifted through and become part of the bed, it's fully composted and not using N.
 
Which explains the difference between the methods, one uses a passive composting on the garden beds whereas the other uses an active process, separately which is then added.  I could see a definite advantage to using wood chips as mulch (provided it's separated from the active root zone) as the slow, low heat process would create a high humus compost that wouldn't break down.
 
Right, there are microbes who LOVE grass clippings.  The stuff you mulch into your yard when your mow is gone before the next time you mow most often.  Grass is high in nitrogen and when its gone and the microbes die off the nitrogen is readily available for the plants.  A thin layer of grass clippings can completely decompose in less than a week in a garden thus releasing the nitrogen.  Dont think of it as a traditional composting view because it isn't.  Traditional composters think nothing but aged complete compost should go into the garden and mulch shouldn't be used either.  
 
To be clear though, I still wouldn't mix grass clipping directly into my beds, I can understand adding them to the mulch on top of a bed but they said directly in the movie that mixing raw material into a bed will lock up nitrogen during the decomposition. Unless you have a source that says otherwise though, but from the only reference mentioned in this thread so far (back to eden), they clearly say not to mix raw material into garden bed
 
millworkman said:
And I might be the only one who likes this but; leaves from the fall shredded up make an amazing peat substitute and grow some stupid amazing plants.
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absolutely!
I only till once a year, occasionally twice(normally in the spring right before i plant). I use grass clippings all summer as a weed mat, they turn totally brown in less than a week. I use mulch just to make a walking path because I hate grass clippings getting in my flip-flops. In the fall, I go get a truckload of leftover pumpkins after Halloween, toss them around the garden and hack them in half with a machete. Then I mow all the leaves and cover the pumpkins, soil and grass, about a foot or two high and let it work it's magic over the winter. I took a soil sample to the local nursery, they asked what I do and the lady's jaw dropped and said it's one of the highest residual nitrogen and phosphorus readings she's seen and it didn't make sense to her.
 
"Aerodynamically, the bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly, but the bumble bee doesn't know it so it goes on flying anyway."


-Mary Kay Ash
 
 
 
I go get a truckload of leftover pumpkins after Halloween, toss them around the garden and hack them in half with a machete.
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This guy wants his head back...
sleepy_hollow_105.jpg
 
millworkman said:
Mixing no. Dont mix wood chips. Dont mix grass. Dont mix them at all. Thats why its no till. You leave it be and only add to the top.
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Now that's very interesting because Windchicken mixes his wood chips into his dirt, top to bottom.  I just received a PM from him stating this.  What I'm waiting to find out is whether he is able to plant immediately, or has to wait a season for the chips to break down.  I'd like to adapt his method to a raised bed.
 
I knew that Pepper Guru had to have plants that were nothing short of amazing when I threw my hat in the ring. I'm not trying to disprove organic methods, destroy the planet, or anything like that lol. Remember the "King of the hill" episode when Hank wanted to join the cook-off with propane? Haha... well I guess that's me! All hoopla aside I'm ordering my seed and promix tomorrow, and rest assured that I'm the kind of guy that knows that maybe I won't, but maybe I will. And there will be a post to track the methods and progress from start to finish. So away we go!

armac said:
this new guyy is an acreage farmer, he farms for profit, most of us here are GARDENERS, there is a difference. he may, or may not raise 100,000 plants at a time, we dote over 250 plants, the biggest gardeners here.

our biggest real "no till" guy here is windchicken, and he gets great results.

you have to look at scale when arguing a point.

handmade cars are artistic and great, but could you build 20,000 a month? no so you use technology.....this same theme applies to large scale farming.

if this new guy uses no pesticide and is gettting great results, we should all be happy for him, pesticides are the real scrourge of the enviroment.
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Thanks man! Nice to know someone gets it!
 
Roguejim said:
 
Now that's very interesting because Windchicken mixes his wood chips into his dirt, top to bottom.  I just received a PM from him stating this.  What I'm waiting to find out is whether he is able to plant immediately, or has to wait a season for the chips to break down.  I'd like to adapt his method to a raised bed.
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I thought he only mixed them the first year and had to pour on the nitrogen to make up for it ? Thats why you dont till them in. If you do thats where nitrogen issues come from not from them laid on top.
 
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