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organic Organic Gardening...No Till...Forum?

No problem guys. I can tell you that if you have issues with plants drying out try hugelkultur. I can walk on the one big bed I have setup 10 days after rain and still hear water squish under my feet but damn the plants are seriously loving it.
 
This is just one species we have to deal with down here, read the link, its crazy that there's like 2 dozen more I fight off year round!
 
http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/node/308
 
 
Ecological Significance
: Reported as a weed of 17 crops in 27 countries, considered one
of the most serious grass weeds (Holm
et al.
1977). Introduced into Gulf Coast of United
States before 1876, being first collected that year near Mobile, Alabama (Beal 1896).
Seed introduced for forage crops in the South from 1926 (Tarver 1979). By 1950,
planted in nearly every southern Florida county and in a few central and north-central
counties (Hodges and Jones 1950). Quickly forms monocultures that displace native
vegetation, particularly in or near shallow waters (Shilling and Haller 1989). Occurred in
70% of Florida’s public waters by 1992, with the largest infestation in Lake Okeechobee,
displacing nearly 5,670 ha (14,000 acres) of native marsh (Schardt 1994). Also reported
from parks and preserves throughout Florida (EPPC 1996). Has cost an estimated $2
million a year for its management in flood control systems (Schardt and Schmitz 1991).
Has seriously infested citrus groves and golf courses throughout Florida (Baird
et al.
1983, Fleming
et al.
1978).
 
I need a little explanation on incorporating cover crops in no-till gardening.  I've read a lot online but all I've seen pertains to the first year only.  Here is what I want to do.  I'm building a 4x8 raised bed in fall to house my pepper plants for next year.  I'm going to be filling it with a simple 50:50 mix of topsoil (mostly clay) + compost.  I want to plant a cover crop of hairy vetch.  In spring I will cut the vetch down, add some Azomite and worm castings on top of it, then cardboard, then compost, then straw.  I'll wait 2-3 weeks for the cover crop to decompose enough then I will transfer my pepper plants into it.  I think that part is pretty straight forward.  What I'm wondering though is next fall, how do I go about planting a cover crop again?  Do I simply broadcast seed into the mulch or do I need to take the mulch off?  In the spring, will I need to cover the cover crop again with cardboard, etc?  The idea is to have my peppers planted in with the decaying roots of the vetch since vetch fixes nitrogen in the soil.
 
May have found my answer:
 
http://www.permaculture.org/nm/images/uploads/Enriching_Soil_Through_Cover_Cropping_by_Kate_Tieman.pdf
 
It seems that I would just sow the seeds through the mulch into the compost layer.  When time to kill the cover crop I would just place dried organic matter (such as straw) over the killed cover crop and let the cover crop decompose prior to planting my peppers.
 
Edit:  Using that method it seems they don't recommend a weed barrier layer (cardboard).  Probably as the cover crop will choke out the weeds and the weed barrier would make it hard for the cover crops roots to spread down.
 
I read up on a few cover crops and I decided on hairy vetch mainly because it fixes a pretty large amount of Nitrogen (hoping it will provide all the nitrogen I'll need for the grow), is excellent for choking out weeds, and it grows quite well here in KY.
 
In my other two raised beds I'm going to sow forage/tillage radish.  It isn't as great for weed suppression, but it has a large tap root for good aeration and fixes a decent amount of nitrogen.  It also winter kills here so I'll be able to sow seeds for early vegetable crops without trouble.
 
did you read anything good or bad about alfalfa? i am growing on a recomendation from the dope boards, they swear by it.
 
Nope hadn't really read much on alfalfa other than most is perennial, so could be a little more difficult to kill without herbicide or tilling.  But annuals will usually winter kill, although I don't know how well that would work in Texas.
 
Alfalfa has a high Potassium requirement (60 lbs potash per ton of hay), so a bunch of K will be tied up until the plants fully decompose. Depending on your base soil you may need to boost the Potassium in the first year to get good growth on the alfalfa and still have K reserves for the vegetable crop.
 
I'm in Texas. Central and south. (someone asked) And I do understand no till. I'll say it like this. I've grown up in agriculture. I've seen the ebb and flow as far as changing practices. What worries me is the emergence (and it's now downright in your face) of GMO. I could write a book about why I don't like it (I didn't say anything, don't sue me monsanto!!). But what I just can't wrap my head around is this new fad to head back into the 1800's. Heirloom seed is huge now! What's wrong with OUTSTANDING hybrids that a lot of great people spent a lot of good time to develop? They are completely natural. Selectively bred to resist all of mother natures little carbon based assassins! And growing heirloom seeds is not only a nail biting experience, but it gives those little assassins a place to selectively breed themselves and possibly endanger the hybrids at some point! It's like the dfference between a wolf and a german sheperd. One will serve you very well, the other too un-predictable to be any good. Neither one came from any un-natural process. If people don't figure out whats going on before some companies have their way...... we will all be growing genetic mutants. Organic or not. And I still have to say about the fertilizer, I challenge anyone to discover some "environmental damage" in my soil or water. Saw world war z the other day and my favorite line was "mother nature is a serial killer". Oh she sure can be! And a lot of good, smart people have policed this issue very well without stepping out of the box. Now greed is tearing down the box. And it seems like people are running right past the good we already know in order to get away. And I feel like there are a lot half truths and misunderstandings that truly have the power to threaten us all.
 
I wanted to run my new plan for the fall past everyone and get their opinion.  I'm thinking of planting my winter cover crop (rye and hairy vetch mostly but I'm going to try to overwinter some fava's with heavy protection) then mulching with a couple inches of RWC mixed into the top couple inches only with some bone meal.  In the spring I'll cut the compost crops around a month before planting, giving it some time to break down so the N isn't tied up, by then according to the paper the RWC should also be releasing nutrients.  After planting I'll add some blood to ensure there's N (we have cold springs/early summers that can tie up N), then mulch again to retain water.  Make sense or am I creating issues for myself?
 
Busy said:
But what I just can't wrap my head around is this new fad to head back into the 1800's. Heirloom seed is huge now! What's wrong with OUTSTANDING hybrids that a lot of great people spent a lot of good time to develop? They are completely natural. Selectively bred to resist all of mother natures little carbon based assassins! And growing heirloom seeds is not only a nail biting experience, but it gives those little assassins a place to selectively breed themselves and possibly endanger the hybrids at some point!....Organic or not. And I still have to say about the fertilizer, I challenge anyone to discover some "environmental damage" in my soil or water. Saw world war z the other day and my favorite line was "mother nature is a serial killer". Oh she sure can be! And a lot of good, smart people have policed this issue very well without stepping out of the box. Now greed is tearing down the box. And it seems like people are running right past the good we already know in order to get away. And I feel like there are a lot half truths and misunderstandings that truly have the power to threaten us all.
 
I grow open pollinated, inbred varieties instead of hybrids because of two reasons; first I don't want to buy into the commercial cycle of having to buy new seeds each year, but mostly because they're more unique and have a greater range of flavours and textures.  Most modern varieties are grown for ease of production men(hardy, pest resistant, etc as you mentioned) but end up being bland and generic in terms of quality.
 
I'm not going to go over how the typical modern farming practices are damaging the planet again. I don't know anything about how you farm specifically but if you follow the traditional north american model where losing 2 tons/acre of topsoil/year is the norm I don't consider that sustainable or healthy for the environment.  If you want a better understanding of my viewpoint this is a good starting point. http://www.fao.org/nr/solaw/main-messages/en/  Equally I'd love to read any references you have to the long term sustainability or impact of your style of farming if I've misunderstood you
 
the just of that summery being 
 
  • However, global achievements in production in some regions have been associated with degradation of land and water resources, and the deterioration of related ecosystem goods and services. These, include biomass, carbon storage, soil health, water storage and supply, biodiversity, and social and cultural services. Agriculture already uses 11 percent of the world’s land surface for crop production. It also makes use of 70 percent of all water withdrawn from aquifers, streams and lakes. Agricultural policies have primarily benefitted farmers with productive land and access to water, bypassing the majority of small-scale producers who are still locked in a poverty trap of high vulnerability, land degradation and climatic uncertainty.
  • The prevailing patterns of agricultural production need to be critically reviewed. A series of land and water systems now face the risk of progressive breakdown of their productive capacity under a combination of excessive demographic pressure and unsustainable agricultural practices. The physical limits to land and water availability within these systems may be further exacerbated in places by external drivers, including climate change, competition with other sectors and socio-economic changes. These systems at risk warrant priority attention for remedial action simply because there are no substitutes.
  • Widespread adoption of sustainable land and water management practices will also require the global community to have the political will to put in place the financial and institutional support to encourage widespread adoption of responsible agricultural practices. The negative trend in national budgets and official development assistance allocated to land and water needs to be reversed. Possible new financing options include payments for environmental services (PES) and the carbon market. Finally,there is a need for much more effective integration of international policies and initiatives dealing with land and water management. Only by these changes can the world feed its citizens through a sustainable agriculture that produces within environmental limits. 
 
I bought some organic alfalfa seeds on ebay and was going to use those as a cover crop in my small 8' x 16' garden area but now I am wondering if Hairy Vetch or something else might be a better idea? I know very little about cover crops but need to add some life to this soil. I will put in as much compost as I can but nitrogen is needed most as tomatoes are pathetic grown in that soil and so I let the ground rest this season.
 
Happy soil!!

20130629_113332_zps2cfd8cf2.jpg
 
Kind of but not really.
 
I make my own or source it from local tree trimmers.  Most of mine is made from fast growing brush that I cleared out to make my new bed areas and I have never seen so much fungal activity.  The sourced stuff has a good bit of pine and older branches in it so its not as quick to break down but this brush stuff is amazing.  Just hopefully the plants will agree with me.
 
millworkman said:
Kind of but not really.
 
I make my own or source it from local tree trimmers.  Most of mine is made from fast growing brush that I cleared out to make my new bed areas and I have never seen so much fungal activity.  The sourced stuff has a good bit of pine and older branches in it so its not as quick to break down but this brush stuff is amazing.  Just hopefully the plants will agree with me.
 Very interesting with the brush.  It looks like I may have a really tough time sourcing RCW, so I may have to resort to "green waste matter" which is just shredded plant matter.  Looks like this: http://biomassone.com/landscaping_materials/green_waste.php
 
That's what I have covering my raised bed now.  My plan in the Fall is to till it all under with some rabbit manure, and perhaps, additional compost, and cover the ground again with some more green waste matter.  About a month before Spring, I'll throw some more rabbit manure on top of the green waste matter and allow the rain to wash it down.  Anything wrong with this idea?  My main mistake this season was putting a layer of fallen leaves on the soil before adding the green waste matter.  I did this last Fall thinking for sure the leaves would break down completely.  Not!  The leaves created a brown mat between the soil and the green waste matter.  I've had to go back and remove the leaves since my plants are stunted.  This happened 1 week ago, and the plants are in growth mode again.  I'm learning a lot this first season...the hard way.
 
It's kind of starting to feel like beating a dead horse. But the cycle of having to buy super expensive seed is gmo monsanto stuff. The dna of the plant is serialised. You can run the genome and there is a serial number in there that will kick back to monsanto, Dupont, etc. It won't produce viable seed for reproduction. So you are forced to buy it again and again. It emits a pesticide that kills pests as well as beneficials. Where did the bee's go? A lot more negative stuff there too.... And I don't know who is claiming that we lose soil like that..... But I would be plowing bedrock by now. I imagine that if I owned a company that distributed "heritage" seed, I would maket it by throwing down the "corporate seed" card. And it does exist. But the line is blurred. Don't confuse a certified hybrid with a genetic abortion. Thank the creator and your lucky stars you still have access to hybrids. Put them in your deep freeze and hold on to your pants. I drove by a bunch of mature gmo corn today that had on average ONE ear per plant MAYBE two. And I wouldn't want it. But if I put in some good old yellow dent guess what happens, neighboring gmo turns it. I have some milo in, and it is not gmo because the genetics are too close to johnson grass. And they can't seperate them enough to gaurantee a selective kill. It's real in the field. They're into vegetables too. Our ability to go to foriegn markets is in the can. Just for fun, do the math. figure out how much you grow. How fast you do it. How much you eat. And how much is left over to barter for other foods. I won't get back on this. But it is a plee from one of a selfless few who are on the front lines of a war waged on your dinner plate every night to please learn where the line is, before it's too late. We need Americans to know what's going on.
 
It is beating a dead horse...  I was talking about hybrid seed, not GMO, please don't put words in my mouth as I know the difference.  My grandfather (farmer all his life) railed against the commercialization of farming and "modern" hybrids made for profit.
 
The "people" making those claims about soil erosion are the people that have been studying the effects of commercial agriculture for decades and reporting about it's negative effects.  The same people, in a general sense, that brought to light the harms of companies like Monsanto, Dow, Sygenta, etc.  That specific report was written by the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations.  If you aren't going to address the counter arguments and talk over them, there's no point continuing this discussion as it's one sided.
 
I have done the math, off 1/3 of an acre (roughly), we feed 5-6 adults roughly 90% of their veges through the summer as well as most of the fruit.  Leaving enough to preserve for the winter, only having to buy fresh veges and fruit.  The goal once Rachel and I start developing the bush lot next year is to eventually produce all of our veges, fruit and meat plus having a couple acres of market gardens to supplement higher profit revenue streams.  Do the research, there's plenty of small scale sustainable farmers that are pulling in good incomes.  Devrais family in Pasadena come to mind (all their own produce plus 20k income on 1/10th of an acre), I was at a lecture this spring by a Quebec farmer pulling in 150k gross income on under 2 acres.  The myth that you need lots of land for a productive farm is a fallacy, more and more it's being shown how much can be done in small spaces if working with nature instead of thinking of it as a serial killer.
 
If you would like to continue this debate, message me as I'm sure no one wants to have a good thread derailed.
 
Roguejim said:
 My main mistake this season was putting a layer of fallen leaves on the soil before adding the green waste matter.  I did this last Fall thinking for sure the leaves would break down completely.  Not!  The leaves created a brown mat between the soil and the green waste matter.  I've had to go back and remove the leaves since my plants are stunted.  This happened 1 week ago, and the plants are in growth mode again.  I'm learning a lot this first season...the hard way.
I find with leaf litter you really need to mix in into the top layer a bit so the microbes get in there to do their thing.  Otherwise it tends to form a dense, anaerobic mat like you discovered.  Just be sure there's enough time for it to decompose enough that N isn't tied up.
 
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