what the.... D:

[Jules84]

Why are you using glue traps? It's not very good advice, especially if you're dealing with one critter and you know how these things actually work.

They are excessively cruel and not necessary. I've seen glue traps with mice that had teared off skin because they struggled so hard, and they were chewing one of their limbs off to escape. And what will you do with the animal once caught? Throw it in the garbage bin to starve to death? Why can't you get a cage trap instead, or at the very least, a snap trap? Why do you want to torture the animal for just acting out on its natural instincts?

I'm not sure you realise what actually happens to them once caught on these things. They're inhumane and barbaric. Super-gluing a mammal on a sheet of plastic should never be a solution. Thankfully pest control companies are starting to phase them out (many countries have outright banned these things). I'm just saying, it's not nice to subject any animal to excessive amounts of cruelty when there are better ways to go about it. I've no aversion to killing mice myself, but it should be done in a humane fashion, and not gluey-torture.

Wildlife rehab site with info on these things

If my anecdote and these links don't convince you, then I sure hope an animal suffering face to face will. Knowing all this, why would you want to use a glue trap anyway? Let's see if you'll have the same amount of 'enthusiasm' when you see a terrified animal squirming in pain with body parts torn off and/or broken. I would heavily recommend throwing them out and using a simple cage or tin trap. And I know I'm not the only one here who thinks glue traps are excessively cruel, but it's something that seriously needs to be pointed out. These animals don't deserve long, painful deaths for simply just being what they are.

 

[Mezo]

Probably about as many peanut butter plants as there are cornflake trees.

Bet you didn't check to see if there was such thing as a Conflake Tree.

Mezo.

 

[DudeThtsBad]

It's a mouse! I've seen it!
no disturbance to any traps all day!
maybe it died or ran away!
I'm hoping for the best!

 

[Jules84]

And what do you intend to do with the mouse if caught on one of those monstrous traps? Kill it? How? Seriously, have you thought through it?

 

[Wolfman0709]

I just don't see why animals deserve more rights to protection than human children. I don't believe the activism belongs on here, seriously.

 

[DudeThtsBad]

I would probably just free if, if I could unstick it with a stick, if it's too stuck on to the trap, then I'd let it starve..
Just being honest.

 

[Dave2000]

Be careful freeing it if you try to, they can spread some nasty diseases. No need to wait till it starves, you can pick the trap up with a shovel, take it outside and SPLAT (or just drop it in a small metal container and put the lid on, throw in the trash).

Keep in mind that if you leave it there to starve, other mice, even same kind, will eat their own! A stuck mouse is bait for another animal.

The funny thing is, one of the links Jules gave suggests that a humane way to control rodents is to include natural rodent predators like owls... because it's very humane for the mouse to be eaten (to death). That's what ends up happening every day anyway, if the mouse has nothing to eat inside then outside something else lives by eating it.

 

[Jules84]

I just don't see why animals deserve more rights to protection than human children. I don't believe the activism belongs on here, seriously.

What on earth are you talking about? No one said to give them "more rights" than children. You're missing the point made completely. I'll say it again: if you need to kill an animal, do it humanely, with minimal pain. Don't torture it, don't be a friggin' evil jerk about it. How hard is that to understand?It's pretty disturbing actually *wanting* to make something starve to death on a sheet of glue paper, when it's disfigured and crying out in pain. Callous, unnecessary, cruel... whatever you want to call it. It's just not right. And killing something swiftly doesn't mean you're putting them on the same level as *human children*. I don't know where on earth you got that from.

I would probably just free if, if I could unstick it with a stick, if it's too stuck on to the trap, then I'd let it starve..Just being honest.

Oh great, so you're going to poke it with a stick and hurt it more - then if it doesn't come off, you're just gonna leave it there so it dies slowly and painfully?

Terrific, what a very appropriate and kind thing to do with a still-living mammal. What did it do to deserve something like that? Actually, do you have *any* sense of empathy/compassion/respect to other living things... at all? Why on earth would you consider leaving it on the trap??

You can free them with vegetable oil. Leaving them to starve is a completely fucked up and very cruel thing to do. YOU set up the trap, to catch the animal - so it is YOUR responsibility to do the final deed. You're just making it suffer more than it has to... why?? Starvation is a long process, and it'd be painful for it trying to spend a day or two trying to get off and tearing its skin off in the process. It is better to be merciful than it is to be a monster. I don't like mice and rats shitting all over the floor and chewing my stuff either, but torturing something to death isn't the answer. Ever.

The funny thing is, one of the links Jules gave suggests that a humane way to control rodents is to include natural rodent predators like owls... because it's very humane for the mouse to be eaten (to death).

It's more humane than spending days on a glueboard completely frightened, disfigured to the point of gnawing body parts to escape, starving to death slowly. An owl eats a mouse to survive, it doesn't think of "oh I should be quick because it might suffer" because they are intellectually incapable of doing so. A human should know better than an owl. A human can make a conscious choice - trap the animal and either a) give the animal a quick death or b) let it continue disfigure itself and let it starve. Why would someone choose b) intentionally? Doesn't sound like a very good person to me...

And I apologise if I seem a little forced... I don't intend to offend. I've had really bad experiences with these traps, so when I see people using them I do get a little bit antsy. Mostly because I think they're just a crude form of pest control, and just an animal torturing device, really. That's why I question their use. And that's especially why I question someone for simply leaving the poor thing to starve to death on that hellish contraption, rather than having the kahunas to put the little fellow out of its misery. Mice can't help being mice, don't deserve to be disposed of in particularly inhumane/nasty ways. They're just trying to survive, have no ill-intent. And while they *have* to be controlled, that doesn't mean it's OK to do incredibly mean things to it, like for example, letting it sit there on the trap and starve to death. That'd be one of the most painful ways to go.

 

[Chile Juju]

Well, the way I see it, if that mouse hadn't been such a greedy little bastard, this would all be a non-issue! hahahaha

I moved to the 'country', and never could kill anything. Sheesh, I even rescued a black widow once!

But eventually the mouse-destruction took me to the dark side and now, when it comes to mice....they gotta go. And I don't spend much time agonizing over their demise anymore. I'm always willing to share...but when they get greedy......bye,bye!

(but I still rescue spiders!!!)

 

[Jules84]

The mouse can't help being a greedy bastard though, when we build on top of their burrows or location. They will search for warmth and for food, and human houses provide plenty of that. Not their fault.

It isn't about whether or not they gotta go, but appropriate and humane methods of disposal. After all, you're not going to exactly scald one alive with boiling water after you've trapped it in a cage, are you? There's a big distinction between removing a pest because it has to go, and going out of one's way to inflict more pain than necessary (which is precisely why it isn't right just to leave it on a glue trap to die). The latter is what someone sick or sadistic in the head would do. Not that I'm calling anyone here sadistic, but it's questionable if someone wants to torture an animal.

 

[Dave2000]

^ and the humans can't help but ignore animals' feelings if we want to be the dominant species. Merely occupying land with buildings we caused the slow starvation of animals till a balance was met.

I'm sure you feel you thought this through but I think you haven't really. Taking myself as an example, if I had two choices:

A) Immediately be executed.

B) Be stuck on a sticky floor and have some time to come to terms with my pending demise.

I'd pick B)

Aron Ralston was that hiker who had his arm stuck in a crevice and chose to cut the arm off, when he could have killed himself instead. Clearly he wanted to live longer regardless of losing the limb. Does the mouse want to die immediately or try to rip itself free? You really don't know.

I don't feel you can put yourself in the mind of a mouse and know what it wants, Jules84, nor can you put yourself in my mind and know if I'm being sadistic in my method of disposal of an animal that knew it was putting itself in danger sneaking around the *den* of a higher species.

What about fishing? If you catch a fish can you not pack it in a box to scale and gut later, must you end its life right then and there? It seems quite arbitrary to hold vermin to a higher standard.

 

[gumbii]

wow...


man it's just a rat... next you're gonna tell him to feed him rat pellets so he can have a full tummy and leave the seedlings alone... LOL...


that rat is making you stress out and destroy some plants that you've been putting so much time and effort into... IMO it doesn't deserve a quick swift death... and you guys are lucky you aren't breeding chickens like me... you guys should read some threads on backyardchickens or other chicken breeding forums... you will trip out on what we do to our culls...

 

[Jules84]

^ and the humans can't help but ignore animals' feelings if we want to be the dominant species. Merely occupying land with buildings we caused the slow starvation of animals till a balance was met.

There's a massive distinction between misplacing animals on land you're building on and unintentionally causing havoc, and trapping an animal that is well under your control, and making the decision right then and there to starve it to death.

I'm sure you feel you thought this through but I think you haven't really. Taking myself as an example, if I had two choices:

A) Immediately be executed.

B) Be stuck on a sticky floor and have some time to come to terms with my pending demise.

I'd pick B)

Aron Ralston was that hiker who had his arm stuck in a crevice and chose to cut the arm off, when he could have killed himself instead. Clearly he wanted to live longer regardless of losing the limb. Does the mouse want to die immediately or try to rip itself free? You really don't know.

With that analogy being applicable in the first place, that assumes the mouse *thinks* like a human being (ie. like you). When at the end of the day, it is just a frightened animal that has no idea what is going on. Aron Ralston didn't have his entire torso meshed in super glue, and knew that if he got out, help would be on hand. He didn't have both his arms and legs broken, didn't have his entire face ripped from his skull, didn't have injuries so grevious that he wouldn't survive a whole day. The situation was a freak accident, it wasn't some man-made situation like a glue trap where an external party had the choice of how to proceed. At that point there's no hope for survival. I'm sure if someone gave you the option of a bullet to the head vs flaying you alive, breaking all your limbs and starving you to death... you'd choose A. Because an animal being stuck on a glue trap would be closer to that. It'd be kinder to kill it, that you're trying to rationalise inherent animal cruelty is completely absurd.

I don't feel you can put yourself in the mind of a mouse and know what it wants, Jules84, nor can you put yourself in my mind and know if I'm being sadistic in my method of disposal of an animal that knew it was putting itself in danger sneaking around the *den* of a higher species.

I don't know "what it wants", but I sure as hell know what is more humane/kinder. So the animal "knew" such a large, large structure that is beyond its comprehension, is owned by humans? I don't think so. Such animals have no concepts of such ownership. And as a higher species, we can think beyond what a lion might think if the same animal were its den for example. Oh wait a second, it would just maul it to death - not make a concious decision to torture it.

What about fishing? If you catch a fish can you not pack it in a box to scale and gut later, must you end its life right then and there? It seems quite arbitrary to hold vermin to a higher standard.

You should ensure it doesn't suffer unnecessarily, yes. That means killing it rather than just leaving it to suffer. Same with hunting - someone shoots a dear, they tend to aim for a clear shot to the head or the heart. They don't just shot its leg, wait for it to bleed and die. That's unethical, and a reasonable hunter would be opposed to something like that. It's the same thing with an animal suffering in a trap, you kill it, to spare its misery. You don't just leave it there to suffer. Well, you do - but that'd make you a terrible person, wouldn't it, do to something that malicious?

wow...

man it's just a rat... next you're gonna tell him to feed him rat pellets so he can have a full tummy and leave the seedlings alone... LOL...

Wow! Someone who finds cruelty to helpless animals distasteful and replusive. Who wouddla thunk it?

Man, it's just a living being that can feel pain and suffer. It might only be a rat, but it can still feel everything that's done to it. Still cry out in pain as you hurt it.

Seems to me you're being a jerk just for the hell of it. What a miserable person you are. "it's just a rat" - as if that's any justification to inflict excessive cruelty on it.

that rat is making you stress out and destroy some plants that you've been putting so much time and effort into... IMO it doesn't deserve a quick swift death...

That rat is only doing what comes naturally to it. It doesn't know they're your precious plants. It doesn't know you put in a lot of effort into it. So it deserves to be tortured to death because of that? Are you flippin' kidding me?

you will trip out on what we do to our culls...

Why would I hang out with a bunch of people who obviously have no respect for life, and want to torture a still living, breating animal anyway? And I'm sure most people there wouldn't be party to such disgusting behaviour. There are humane ways of doing things, and then there are brutal, callous unnecessary ways. Maybe you should ask yourself how it feels having limbs broken and skin flayed because you're stuck on a sheet of glue in a large garbage bin. Yes, please tell me why it's OK to treat an animal like that? Because it ate your plants??? Wow... really....

 

[Mumrik]

Last mouse I found I scooped up between a bowl and a piece of cardboard, took into the yard and annihilated with a shovel. It's a pest and it is trespassing on my territory. Sure, there's no need to torture them slowly, but I see no reason to feel bad about killing rodents that move into my/your house.

So DudeThtsBad, if you find one on one of your traps, I vote shovel. It's handy for body disposal afterwards too.



Jules, did you really register on a chili forum solely to protest the killing of mice? Five posts, all in this thread.



Edit: Are you only protesting not giving the killing blow ASAP?

 

[Jules84]

Sure, there's no need to torture them slowly, but I see no reason to feel bad about killing rodents that move into my/your house.

Thank you! Exactly my point.

Jules, did you really register on a chili forum solely to protest the killing of mice? Five posts, all in this thread.

Edit: Are you only protesting not giving the killing blow ASAP?

I have said quite clearly I have no qualms with removing and killing pest animals. It's not the killing I'm against (I have killed mice myself), it is the method. So yes, I am protesting against unnecessarily cruel methods... that includes just dumping a still-live and stick mouse on a glue trap for it to die slowly in the garbage bin. That's just callous and cruel, and in many ways fucked up actually. It's not a burger wrapper for heaven's sake... that is where I'm getting at!

I'm not sure I understand how my comment of "it's cruel to let a mouse starve to death on a glue trap, kill it quickly and humanely if you have to kill it, do not torture it" is interpreted as "don't kill mice period". My first post even shows two links on the matter, one from a wildlife rehab site and one from YouTube that address the points that I have made.

 

[gumbii]

meh... don't care what you think... i'm just saying the truth... like any true breeder... if you have a pair of 4 thousand dollar dogs, and some of the puppies come out with some unwanted traits (say, long legs or long hair) you cull them right away... that's all part of breeding... you're trying to perfect a breed, not just propagate a bunch of unwanted animals that are going to mud up the breed...

many of us true breeders don't have what you guys have... and many people don't have it in them to do what we do... out of the 100 eggs i incubate and hatch, only 12 will make it to adult hood... 2-3 will be for show, and the rest for sale out of state... this country was founded by farm folk and others with the same mentality as mine... i raise and care for a bunch of fowl like turkeys, ducks, chickens and rabbits... but when the time comes, they are lunch... lol...

on BYC, we have a thing called SSS... that's shoot, shovel and shhhh... like if a neighbor's family dog is going into their chickens and killing them, we tell them to SSS... and many do... neighbor asks if they seen their dog, you shhhhhh...

now imagine what we do to field mice...?

 

[Jules84]

Yeah, sure you cull them. But do you do so in excessively painful ways? Like, do you stick them with superglue, and starve them to death? Or flammable liquid and flame them? No... of course you don't. Or at least, I hope you don't.

Think you're missing my point here, gumbii. It's not the culling I'm talking about, it's *how* one culls. These animals are still living creatures that can feel pain, that should amount to something at least. Quick and painlessly.

you guys should read some threads on backyardchickens or other chicken breeding forums... you will trip out on what we do to our culls...

Ohh heyy look, I found something. Seems like they're not too keen on animal torture either.

 

[Dave2000]

^ There's nothing excessively painful if the mouse chooses to stop trying to get away.

Have you been a mouse that died in a glue trap? Do you know that it is more painful than having your arms and neck snapped by a spring trap but being half paralyzed, not dead yet? No, you don't know that. Do you know if having your organs punctured by your rib cage when a shovel hits you is less painful? Do you know if ingesting arsenic or other rat poison is less painful? No, you don't know that. All of your arguments are based on arbitrary unproven assumptions and suggesting that passive inaction is akin to torture is ridiculous.

If you want to suggest we hire snipers to take them out with a single shot to the head, or maybe an IV drip or gas chamber... yeah, that's going to happen.

 

[Jules84]

^ There's nothing excessively painful if the mouse chooses to stop trying to get away.

Except that it won't. It's natural instincts to get away will kick in. And even so, starvation isn't painless. Neither is the burning sensation from the glue vapour, neither is planting oneself in ones own urine and fecal matter for hours and hours. A human being in that situation might be calm, but then again, a human being has the intelligence for restraint and to think things through. I don't know why you think a mouse will act the same way as a human being would, that's where your "if" goes down the toilet really.

Have you been a mouse that died in a glue trap? Do you know that it is more painful than having your neck snapped by a spring trap but being half paralyzed, not dead yet? No, you don't know that. Do you know if having your organs punctured by your rib cage when a shovel hits you is less painful? No, you don't know that.

I've seen mice stuck on these traps squealing in pain with their jaws dislocated and their limbs broken from trying to get away, and one with half its face ripped off because they were forced into a situation where they cannot easily get out of. I found them in a bin while throwing away some shredded paperwork. This was years ago, when some bright spark found it a good idea to dispose of the animals in such a condition - and leave them there. Spring traps are at least designed with mind to sever the spinal cord or break the neck, the majority of the time death is near instantaneous. Don't dare argue for a moment this is some how worse than what I described. As for your shovel comment, it depends on the force of the hit - a swift head to the head would pretty much kill it instantly. Mice are very small, fragile animals... yeah, a microsecond and death is far less painful then dying in superglue slowly with broken bones.

I don't need to be a damn mouse to tell that this would be extremely painful, I just need to be a sympathetic human being with an inkling of intelligence.

All of your arguments are based on arbitrary unproven assumptions.

No, my arguments are based on human decency and common sense. I don't need to hold a degree in animal physiology to say, quite plainly, that throwing a living mouse in the trash on a glue trap is exceedingly cruel and painful for the creature. It is not an assumption to say that ripped flesh and a broken leg is painful for the animal. Studies done on the humaneness of such things, as well as countless anecdotes (as well as the links I had already posted), show what happens to the animals on them. For you to say that there is nothing excessively painful about them when animals don't struggle is a load of garbage because you're pretty much ignoring why they are in fact crude and inhumane in the first place. As if you're reaching for an excuse to justify such barbarity.

If you want to suggest we hire snipers to take them out with a single shot to the head... yeah, that's going to happen.

You seem to be intellectually incapable of understanding the point I made with a "bullet to the head", so let me explain it to you again: better a bullet to the head (ie. an example of a relatively quick death, which was the whole point of using it) than days of suffering while in your own excrement. Oh gee, hard choice. I guess you must be a sado-masochist if you'd prefer the latter.

 

[Dave2000]

^ Human decency starts with spending your time on the human suffering in the world, not the suffering of our pests. Since you choose to ignore the suffering of your own species in favor of vermin I have to conclude you're one of those feel-good types that just wants to distract themselves from something else their conscience won't let rest, without really caring if it makes any real difference in the larger scheme of things.

Again, I personally would rather not be executed right away, the last few moments of life are precious ones. You DO NOT KNOW what the mouse prefers, you are not their spokesperson.

<yawn> I think I've wasted enough time on this derailed sub-topic, sorry about that DudeThtsBad.