seeds 02-03-09 Pepper Seedling Porn

[AlabamaJack]

Pam...that's a good response and I appreciate it...however, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree...

I had never heard the word speciesist before and had to look it up...your response has given me some insight as to how you really feel...thanks for that too...and I really don't know whether I should be offended or not, so I choose not to be offended...but I will tell you this, I eat meat daily and I don't like it when things mess with my garden...and I try to give my plants things that will make them do well...difference of opinion again I suppose...

As far as being the Tim Taylor of the vegetable world...I would be delighted to have that title...what I do, works well for me and if you notice, I don't tell anyone they should do it this way or that. If someone asks me how I do something, I tell them.

 

[BillyIdle]

Very wise words Pam! I don't want my hobby gardening to kill any animals living around here. Even if I'm only growing my chilis indoors, dead plants and used soil will end up in my compost and later outside in my garden.

The fruits won't be bad for us regardless of the kind of nutrients used because as someone else said, the plants will sythezise them. Not really sure about that word, but the plants will "filter" whatever we put in the soil before it gets to the fruit.

I am not sure about this point, but you seem very confident. I'd love to see some documentation on this. Even if someone told you that's how it is, how do you know he's right?

Another thing - I don't have to argue about why I want to grow organic. I just want to. Seems like the right thing to do. I don't have to maximize my crop either. If all the plants in my chili room grows up and sets fruit, I will be over my head in fruits. I have about 60 fruits gowing on my three Super Chilis allready, and for my current eating level that will give me enough chilis to go for months.

But I still ask what I can do, within the organic boundarys, to speed up growth. I'm not looking for AJ's rate of growth, but somewhere in between mine today and his. I guess I'm just a little eager to get to the point where I can taste all these wonderful types of chilis - which I hadn't even heard of 4 months ago - for the first time.

 

[POTAWIE]

I totally agree with Pam, but I guess I'm just a tree-hugger that "doesn't want to hurt the earth" and wants to improve his soil I don't care how everyone else grows their plants as long as they know that there may be potential risks to themselves and the environment. Over the years I've seen many hydroponic nutrients/supplements and hormones pulled off the shelf due to potential health risks and some are restricted in Canada but not in the US. Can you really trust the government to say what is safe? It also seems that the demand for "organic" or "healthier grown,chemical & hormone & antibiotic free" food is rising dramatically as people become educated about their foods and what goes into it.

On the other hand, organic nutrients aren't necessarily any healthier than non-organic hydro nutrient, since with hydro they can extract what is needed by the plant and get rid of the un-needed or potentially toxic stuff. I think in the future there will be more emphasis on bioponics or other organic hydroponic type sytems where you get the water savings of the hydro and the organic benefits of organic gardening, without unwanted chemicals.

 

[UnNatural]

Whoa! Where am I? I just came here to look at purty seedling pictures.

 

[bigt]

For me, the environment I create in my yard is as important as perfect peppers and large flower blossoms. I really, really want the hummingbirds feeding at the Texas Star Hibiscus in the front yard to be healthy, happy hummingbirds. Same with the butterflies on the lantana, and the caterpillars on the spice bush and fennel.

You know how much I adore my little tree frogs? Well, I probably could have saved several tomato plants and a couple of pepper plants from early blight last summer, but who knows how many frogs I would have killed with the fungicide. The stinkbugs ran amok in August, but I didn't spray with Neem for fear of hurting the frogs and lizards and garter snakes that were in the garden by then, too. So I don't have as many peppers, or as perfect pods...I have tree frogs! I have anolis lizards and toads and snakes, and hoards of native bees! It thrills me more than I have words to express to lift up a branch of a pepper plant and see one of those little tree frogs skipping away.

If you want to be the Tim Taylor of the vegetable world, knock yourself out. Don't think I'm going to let you get away with calling it natural, mind you, cause it's not; but it's your yard, do whatever you want. For me, well, it's not like I'm going to have a shortage of peppers by not using plant hormones. I already give away bags and bags of peppers, no need for me to do something that has, from my perspective, the potential for harm.

I swear, sometimes it seems to me like some of you guys approach this like it's a competitive sport, not a garden.

I totally agree with Pam, but I guess I'm just a tree-hugger that "doesn't want to hurt the earth" and wants to improve his soil I don't care how everyone else grows their plants as long as they know that there may be potential risks to themselves and the environment. Over the years I've seen many hydroponic nutrients/supplements and hormones pulled off the shelf due to potential health risks and some are restricted in Canada but not in the US. Can you really trust the government to say what is safe? It also seems that the demand for "organic" or "healthier grown,chemical & hormone & antibiotic free" food is rising dramatically as people become educated about their foods and what goes into it.

On the other hand, organic nutrients aren't necessarily any healthier than non-organic hydro nutrient, since with hydro they can extract what is needed by the plant and get rid of the un-needed or potentially toxic stuff. I think in the future there will be more emphasis on bioponics or other organic hydroponic type sytems where you get the water savings of the hydro and the organic benefits of organic gardening, without unwanted chemicals.

Wow - great discussion! I would have to side with Pam on this subject though and she's making me rethink my approach. I still remember my best garden year ever I used no fertilizers and some 97 cent WalMart seeds. I have to admit though, seeing all these different methods to grow a plant is fun.

 

[Pam]

Pam,

Yep! If the birds and the bees want to eat dead aphids, then they may have weird offspring, such as having three wings.

Out of curiosity, do you tell the folks you share produce with that you use DDT?

As I said, I grow plants so I can eat their produce.

So do I. We don't live in a subsistence level society, however, and neither one of us is making a living growing produce. It's a hobby. Let's keep a little perspective, here.

OK, there are exceptions. People want plants for their garden that have not been treated with artificial chemicals - I'm doing that with my seedlings. But I'll use whatever makes my plants grow the best in my garden.

Mike

Even if it's harmful to your yard or your health in the long run?

 

[AlabamaJack]

this is exactly why I asked for this discussion...and I wanted it to be known that I am not an organic grower...I had thought about trying to grow organic last year but when Pam pointed out to me that I don't grow natural and organic, I stopped saying I do...

but being hard headed and a believer in engineering, science/technology, the good of man and goverment, I suppose I am a Missourian on this one that says "show me" what I am using is bad for the environment and/or health...

it takes two sides to discuss items like this and I just hope if the discussion continues, it stays civil...

 

[lostmind]

Who's looking for problems? What is their methodology? Is there a limit on how much is safe? How was it established?

And, say, how many years did they give menopausal women hormones to increase their bone density and protect them from heart attacks and breast cancer because no one saw any ill effects? After all, common sense said that it should work. And gosh, didn't that work out well.

You know that I did some digging into this last year, and I'll tell you the same thing now as then, I did not see any peer reviewed papers that showed any ill effects of eating the fruits of plants given growth hormones. I also didn't see a single paper where anyone was *looking* to see if there were any ill effects of eating the fruits of plants given growth hormones. I mean, the only reason we know growth hormones given to livestock leaves residues in the meat we consume is because someone thought to look.

And, well, you're being rather speciesist, even though I hate that word. You don't really know if the run off from the over fertilizing you're doing is having any effect on the rest of the environment. We already know that a lot of things that homeowners dump on their yards don't cause problems there, but can cause problems downstream. Do we know if increasing the amount of plant hormones in streams and rivers has no effect on fish or wildlife? How about aquatic plant life?

For me, the environment I create in my yard is as important as perfect peppers and large flower blossoms. I really, really want the hummingbirds feeding at the Texas Star Hibiscus in the front yard to be healthy, happy hummingbirds. Same with the butterflies on the lantana, and the caterpillars on the spice bush and fennel.

You know how much I adore my little tree frogs? Well, I probably could have saved several tomato plants and a couple of pepper plants from early blight last summer, but who knows how many frogs I would have killed with the fungicide. The stinkbugs ran amok in August, but I didn't spray with Neem for fear of hurting the frogs and lizards and garter snakes that were in the garden by then, too. So I don't have as many peppers, or as perfect pods...I have tree frogs! I have anolis lizards and toads and snakes, and hoards of native bees! It thrills me more than I have words to express to lift up a branch of a pepper plant and see one of those little tree frogs skipping away.

If you want to be the Tim Taylor of the vegetable world, knock yourself out. Don't think I'm going to let you get away with calling it natural, mind you, cause it's not; but it's your yard, do whatever you want. For me, well, it's not like I'm going to have a shortage of peppers by not using plant hormones. I already give away bags and bags of peppers, no need for me to do something that has, from my perspective, the potential for harm.

You know, for the most part I agree with all your arguments. But I also feel what I do in my backyard is such a minuscule drop in the bucket compared to actual farming that it really doesn't matter.

Of course you could argue it's gotta start somewhere...

I could say that I have the same box of fertilizer I bought 4 years ago and that I've used it each year but I only fertilize so little it'll last my another 4 years.

But you could say that even a drop of poison is still poison.

Unfortunately it's a cyclical argument...

I use mostly organic additives because they worked the best for me. Once industry figures this out then perhaps change will occur.

I swear, sometimes it seems to me like some of you guys approach this like it's a competitive sport, not a garden.

THP for the most part is populated by men (unfortunate as it is, it's a real sausage fest here!) and we tend to turn everything into a competitive sport of some sort! We can't help it! I consider it continuous self improvement, my wife calls it a waste of time and money

Difference of perspective!

 

[Pam]

Pam...that's a good response and I appreciate it...however, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree...

On what? Your ellipses abuse? That there is no research that has been done to prove that giving plants steroids will have no deleterious effects? That tree frogs are worth going to a bit of trouble to preserve? I'm agreeing with you that there is no literature that I could find saying pumping your plants up with steroids can hurt you.

I had never heard the word speciesist before and had to look it up...your response has given me some insight as to how you really feel...thanks for that too...and I really don't know whether I should be offended or not, so I choose not to be offended...

*dryly* My, how kind of you. I did say I didn't really like that word, but hunting for a better word kept circling back to some form of egocentrism, which has overtones of vanity, which was not what I was trying to convey at all. And "It's all about me" seemed trite. So, I settled.

but I will tell you this, I eat meat daily and I don't like it when things mess with my garden...and I try to give my plants things that will make them do well...difference of opinion again I suppose...

I'm an omnivore, just like nature intended. And I wish I could ban the bad bugs and only keep the good ones; only, nature doesn't work like that. What is a bad bug in one corner of my garden, is a good bug in another. The parasitic wasp that controls the tomato hornworm in the vegetable patch also kills my monarch and black swallowtail caterpillars.

As far as being the Tim Taylor of the vegetable world...I would be delighted to have that title...what I do, works well for me and if you notice, I don't tell anyone they should do it this way or that. If someone asks me how I do something, I tell them.

"I am trying to understand why you wouldn't give your plants vitamins or growth hormones to improve their growth habits if these items have been used over 60 years without any ill side effects."

I suspect it wasn't your intention, but the wording there is kinda loaded.

 

[Pam]

this is exactly why I asked for this discussion...and I wanted it to be known that I am not an organic grower...I had thought about trying to grow organic last year but when Pam pointed out to me that I don't grow natural and organic, I stopped saying I do...

I have already pointed out that there is a difference in growing organic and growing natural. I honestly don't remember if the stuff you use is organic, just that it's not natural. Giving plants large and continuous doses of plant hormones is not natural even if the products are organic.

but being hard headed and a believer in engineering, science/technology, the good of man and goverment, I suppose I am a Missourian on this one that says "show me" what I am using is bad for the environment and/or health...

Show me it's not. I've seen so many cases of products that are supposed to be perfectly safe that, upon closer inspection, have proven to be harmful that I approach these claims with cynicism and due caution.

it takes two sides to discuss items like this and I just hope if the discussion continues, it stays civil...

Muhuhahaha! Look out, it's that uppity wench again!

 

[MrArboc]

I am not sure about this point, but you seem very confident. I'd love to see some documentation on this. Even if someone told you that's how it is, how do you know he's right?

Actually - you made a claim that goes against everything every governments "food safety department" have found so the burden of evidence is on you. If you succeed the food industry will go through some major changes very fast

 

[Pam]

You know, for the most part I agree with all your arguments. But I also feel what I do in my backyard is such a minuscule drop in the bucket compared to actual farming that it really doesn't matter.

Well, but, lots of drops can still fill a bucket. You don't have to go to extremes, either. If lots of people cut the amount and number of pesticide applications by 10%, the cumulative effect on the environment can be significant.

Of course you could argue it's gotta start somewhere...

And, you know, tree frogs saved!

I could say that I have the same box of fertilizer I bought 4 years ago and that I've used it each year but I only fertilize so little it'll last my another 4 years.

But you could say that even a drop of poison is still poison.

Only, I don't say all fertilizer is poison. I say *over* fertilizing can damage the environment.

 

[Pam]

Actually - you made a claim that goes against everything every governments "food safety department" have found so the burden of evidence is on you. If you succeed the food industry will go through some major changes very fast

Because everything every government ever tells us is 100% true and accurate forever and ever, amen.

 

[twang20]

 

[POTAWIE]

The fruits won't be bad for us regardless of the kind of nutrients used because as someone else said, the plants will sythezise them. Not really sure about that word, but the plants will "filter" whatever we put in the soil before it gets to the fruit

I guess we should all grow in Mexico and use DDT then? or maybe just use raw sewage. Unfortunately plants don't synthezise everything, if they did, we wouldn't have toxicity or bacterial issues etc.

Actually - you made a claim that goes against everything every governments "food safety department" have found so the burden of evidence is on you. If you succeed the food industry will go through some major changes very fast

To me that sounds so ridiculous. Safety standards are different around the world, so which government or scientist are you going to trust. If the man says its safe I guess its safe

 

[imaguitargod]

I guess we should all grow in Mexico and use DDT then?

Better idea: We all go to Mexico and use some DMT! Weeeeeee!

 

[AlabamaJack]

On what?

the way we grow our gardens

*dryly* My, how kind of you. I did say I didn't really like that word, but hunting for a better word kept circling back to some form of egocentrism, which has overtones of vanity, which was not what I was trying to convey at all. And "It's all about me" seemed trite. So, I settled.

please do not put labels on me or call me names...I don't do those things to you and I deserve the same respect...

Show me it's not. I've seen so many cases of products that are supposed to be perfectly safe that, upon closer inspection, have proven to be harmful that I approach these claims with cynicism and due caution.

You are the one that said it could be and I simply asked why?

 

[POTAWIE]

As far as being the Tim Taylor of the vegetable world...I would be delighted to have that title

Seems like more of an insult to me. You'd have powerful garden tools but crappy plants

 

[imaguitargod]

Seems like more of an insult to me. You'd have powerful garden tools but crappy plants

And what little plants you had left would probably burst into flames.

 

[AlabamaJack]

that would be typical...and just my luck