is it ok to force the ph down by adding lime juice? or will that stall the ferment?
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tutorial Fermenting Peppers 101
- Thread starter RocketMan
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pungentSapling said:
hot stuff said:
My ferments usually come out at between Ph 3.4 and 3.6 and that's been every time for quite a while. There really isn't a need to add anything to force it lower. Now, I have added lime/lemon juice, after the ferment, when it was a part of the flavor profile I wanted. This can also be achieved by using lime or lemon zest which can be added to the ferment so, the juice really isn't necessary.
how long would you expect it to take for the ph level to drop below 4... I have always found that it happened quickly.. but i have this one batch that is stubborn...
How long do you expect it to take for the ph to drop below 4? all my previous ferments have dropped quickly... but I have one now that is stubborn..RocketMan said:
So some questions guys:
How do I know when fermentation is done?
How do I know if my batch is safe to consume?
I ask these two questions because I made two batches of habaneros to ferment. They were originally frozen so I thawed and pureed to a rough puree for fermenting. The one batch I added water and salt to 4%-5% weight. The other batch I only added salt to 4%-5% weight. Both batches I fermented in a mason jar with the lid loosely on for 24 hours. I then closed them and took to shaking them to avoid any mold build up.
The water batch fermented for about a week, I constantly burped it. The second one did nothing.
I decided to blend the two batches and haven't seen any fermenting going on.
Can anyone give me some insight?
How do I know when fermentation is done?
How do I know if my batch is safe to consume?
I ask these two questions because I made two batches of habaneros to ferment. They were originally frozen so I thawed and pureed to a rough puree for fermenting. The one batch I added water and salt to 4%-5% weight. The other batch I only added salt to 4%-5% weight. Both batches I fermented in a mason jar with the lid loosely on for 24 hours. I then closed them and took to shaking them to avoid any mold build up.
The water batch fermented for about a week, I constantly burped it. The second one did nothing.
I decided to blend the two batches and haven't seen any fermenting going on.
Can anyone give me some insight?
Your target Ph should be in the 3.4 to 3.6 range. If your there then your golden. Primary fermentation will be done after about 2 weeks. After that it slows down and any residual sugars will be consumed but mostly the mash will age and start to get all happy and mellow together. Your batch will be safe to consume if your Ph is under 4 and it doesn't smell like a sewer. Let you nose be your guide 
Note: this isn't a pimp for the book, just more of a commentary on different fermentation techniques.
I've been working my way through the book "The Art of Fermentation" by Sandor Katz. I was hoping for a cookbook like text on the processes and procedures for fermenting foods, as well as a good science background on the subject. But this wasn't what I was looking for. Its more of a 500 page Kumbaya, "we are bacteria, bacteria are us" dialog with tons of vague recipes worked in throughout. The guy obviously has a lot of experience and knows what he is talking about, but its his approach to fermentation that I found fascinating.
Everywhere on THP (and other sources) when people talk about fermentation its all about sanitation, air locks, culture starts, and exact measurements. This dude has a much more loosey-goosey take on the subject which I found fascinating. He isn't worried about sanitation beyond basic soap and water, he preaches dumpster diving at grocery stores for your ingredients because thats when they are most ripe and full of (hopefully) good bacteria, and if your ferment goes long enough any of the bad bacteria will get killed by the generated acidity. He does a lot of open air fermentation as long as the veggies are safely submerged beneath a layer of water or brine. And the only thing he mentioned about culture starts is that he has heard that other people use them.
I put off trying my first ferment for two years after learning about it because I didn't have the right equipment, didn't know where to get culture starts, and I was worried I'd kill myself if I did it wrong. And while I find his methods a bit cavalier for my tastes, it is refreshing to find someone talking casually about fermentation.
Now, from the opposite point of view, if you are fermenting hot sauce for commercial sale or going to give a bottle to everyone at your company, maybe less loosey-goosey and more exact specifications are in order
I've been working my way through the book "The Art of Fermentation" by Sandor Katz. I was hoping for a cookbook like text on the processes and procedures for fermenting foods, as well as a good science background on the subject. But this wasn't what I was looking for. Its more of a 500 page Kumbaya, "we are bacteria, bacteria are us" dialog with tons of vague recipes worked in throughout. The guy obviously has a lot of experience and knows what he is talking about, but its his approach to fermentation that I found fascinating.
Everywhere on THP (and other sources) when people talk about fermentation its all about sanitation, air locks, culture starts, and exact measurements. This dude has a much more loosey-goosey take on the subject which I found fascinating. He isn't worried about sanitation beyond basic soap and water, he preaches dumpster diving at grocery stores for your ingredients because thats when they are most ripe and full of (hopefully) good bacteria, and if your ferment goes long enough any of the bad bacteria will get killed by the generated acidity. He does a lot of open air fermentation as long as the veggies are safely submerged beneath a layer of water or brine. And the only thing he mentioned about culture starts is that he has heard that other people use them.
I put off trying my first ferment for two years after learning about it because I didn't have the right equipment, didn't know where to get culture starts, and I was worried I'd kill myself if I did it wrong. And while I find his methods a bit cavalier for my tastes, it is refreshing to find someone talking casually about fermentation.
Now, from the opposite point of view, if you are fermenting hot sauce for commercial sale or going to give a bottle to everyone at your company, maybe less loosey-goosey and more exact specifications are in order
So are you going to go dumpster diving at Safeway, might make a really cool thread
While I think I might get a bit strict on my sanitation and look for the best looking freshest ingredients, I've also been known to allow it to sit in the fridge till it gets a little softer too The thing that worries me in what you mentioned is the part where the bad bacteria will die in the acidity. Well yeah, they might die though I've read that it takes the heat of a pressure caner to kill any spores and if it's to be left raw and unprocessed any toxins that are produced by the bad guys will still be in there. So...
While I think I might get a bit strict on my sanitation and look for the best looking freshest ingredients, I've also been known to allow it to sit in the fridge till it gets a little softer too
The thing that worries me in what you mentioned is the part where the bad bacteria will die in the acidity. Well yeah, they might die though I've read that it takes the heat of a pressure caner to kill any spores and if it's to be left raw and unprocessed any toxins that are produced by the bad guys will still be in there. So... 
Read that book about 3 or 4 years ago Turbo. I was frustrated by what I got (no real recipes) and somewhat incredulous at his (what I felt to be at the time) rather 'cavalier attitude' about fermenting. I wouldn't recommend it to new fermenters simply because it's sooo loose with recipes and the dumpster diving, etc. I believe its important to learn right - with the right rules in place - and then once informed and experienced you can adhere to whatever you'd like. Just like most everything else in life. I think that's the point that Sandor Katz is at; he's all ninjarific with all his fermenting cause he's been doing it so long that he knows/trusts/has lived (and learned) through his experience.
Sanitation is something we can control. Being clean and food safe improves your chances for successful ferments. Beyond that it's up to you what you put in the jar.
Sanitation is something we can control. Being clean and food safe improves your chances for successful ferments. Beyond that it's up to you what you put in the jar.
RocketMan.
I'm confused by something you said way back on the first page concerning salt/water/volumes:
Setting up the Fermentation jar. Using the above ingredients, shredded the carrots and ran all of the peppers with the seeds and ribs if you want the added heat, onion and garlic, through a Food Processor then put it all into a glass jar big enough to hold it all. Add the Starter and gave it a stir. Dissolve 2 tablespoons salt into 2 cups warm water and poured it over the top till all veggies are under water
You don't stipulate the quantity of veggies, nor the size of jar. Whether or not 2 cups warm water will cover all veggies depends on the amount of veggies in the first place, and the size of the jar they're crammed into, right? I'm just looking for a starting point.
If it took, say, 3 cups warm water to cover all veggies, would I assume 3 tablespoons salt? Thanks!
I'm confused by something you said way back on the first page concerning salt/water/volumes:
Setting up the Fermentation jar. Using the above ingredients, shredded the carrots and ran all of the peppers with the seeds and ribs if you want the added heat, onion and garlic, through a Food Processor then put it all into a glass jar big enough to hold it all. Add the Starter and gave it a stir. Dissolve 2 tablespoons salt into 2 cups warm water and poured it over the top till all veggies are under water
You don't stipulate the quantity of veggies, nor the size of jar. Whether or not 2 cups warm water will cover all veggies depends on the amount of veggies in the first place, and the size of the jar they're crammed into, right? I'm just looking for a starting point.
If it took, say, 3 cups warm water to cover all veggies, would I assume 3 tablespoons salt? Thanks!
Oh dude, I should have caught that or places a statement in there that the method I was using was ultra low in salt because I have High Blood Pressure and really watch the amount of sodium I use. For a normal ferment it should have been in the 6 to 8 percent range and I have increased it to 4 tablespoons of salt in my frrments now. The 2 cups was actually the amount I needed as I had added some water to the food processor to help the ingredients move while chopping. Hope it's clearer now.
The way I was taught is when your using a starter you can use a lower percentage brine as the starter helps kick it into gear faster however when doing a wild ferment you need to have a higher percent as it will take longer for the good bacteria to take charge. So yes a 3 to 5 percent will work fine when using a starter and 6 to 8 for wild ferments. I have no way of knowing what type of ferment anyone using this guide will be doing and this was put together as a guide for first time ferments. I recommend the higher percentage to allow for a margin of error to help keep the bad bacteria out and increase the chance for them to have a successful ferment.
Just when I thought things were getting clearer you guys start confusing things again for me. ha ha
Here's how I'm thinking and correct me if I'm wrong:
I've been following RM's easy and simple 1 tbsp salt per 1 cup of water guide. I want something simple like this instead of weighing, measuring, etc. My thought is that if 1 cup of water is enough to slightly cover the mash, then it's 1 tbsp salt and 1 cup of water. If I have more mash...I make 2 cups with 2 tbsp salt. Ooopsy...I didn't make enough brine to cover the amount of mash I have...so now I just make another cup of water with 1 tbsp of salt and pour what's needed into the container.
What's wrong with that strategy? Does it matter what the weight of the veggies is as long as the salt brine remains consistent?
Here's how I'm thinking and correct me if I'm wrong:
I've been following RM's easy and simple 1 tbsp salt per 1 cup of water guide. I want something simple like this instead of weighing, measuring, etc. My thought is that if 1 cup of water is enough to slightly cover the mash, then it's 1 tbsp salt and 1 cup of water. If I have more mash...I make 2 cups with 2 tbsp salt. Ooopsy...I didn't make enough brine to cover the amount of mash I have...so now I just make another cup of water with 1 tbsp of salt and pour what's needed into the container.
What's wrong with that strategy? Does it matter what the weight of the veggies is as long as the salt brine remains consistent?
Here's the thing, I was, when I originally wrote this, using a lower than normal amount of salt due to High Blood Pressure and a low sodium diet. I was also using a starter. The starter allowed me to get away with the low salt as the LAB took hold faster. If you want to use this method use 2 tablespoon of salt to a cup of water. Since 1 cup is equal to 16 tablespoons and 10% of 16 is 1.6 using 2 tablespoons will give you a brine that is little over 10% by volume of the water your adding but not for the complete mash.