just like Chevey and Pontiac
http://thescottsmira...r_business.html
@Cap
Show me proof of your (NO[sub]3[/sub]- or NH[sub]4[/sub]+) like a doctoral Theseus that has been judged by a group of non bias peers.
Not simplyhydroponcs.com
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soil Is MG soil worth it?
- Thread starter DatilDaddy
- Start date
just like Chevey and Pontiac
@Cap
Show me proof of your (NO[sub]3[/sub]- or NH[sub]4[/sub]+) like a doctoral Theseus that has been judged by a group of non bias peers.
Not simplyhydroponcs.com
I was keeping on topic, and commenting on MG soil...and my opinion. I never commented on Monsanto or their practices. I have other side by sides I have done with other soils and the same result. There are actually two in Fox Farms in the Pic and only one in MG. The soil itself works...no denying the results regarless of how "unscientific" my methods are. All three plants are on the same drip system all with 1gph drippers on the same schedule. I started the season trying numerous soil options and the MG performed most consistent for me and still does. This does not mean that I agree with their business practices, I have learned a ton reading the responses on this thread...and continue to.So when someone disagrees with your opinion you have to resort to ad hominem attacks? Wow, I thought we were all grown ups here.
That's nice but not very scientific when you have only one of each. Genetics plays a huge role and the one in MG may have better genetics.
Also, how do you know MG is not "bad?" If one looks into the history of Monsanto I would be suspect of anything they produce.
If you don't care that is fine as well as I am not eating what you grow.
On another note if MG was so great why do many serious canna growers have a contempt for it? Food for thought
You guys crack me up. The original topic was, "Is MG soil worth it" which is asking for opinions.
When people give their opinion that it is not good soil they get jumped on by others.
You guys need to have a couple tokes and chill.
Here is another "not so scientific" side by side...
I only had one of 5 Goat's Weeds in MG and the rest in Kellogg or Supersoil. This it best of the 4 vs the MG...
Here are the same two plants a little over a month later both in MG...you can see the recovery on the Kellogg plant so no blaming genetics...its responding to the soil.
I started without biased and was actually trying to find the best bang for the buck...like I mentioned before I had no idea about the business practices Monsanto used at the time, just trying to find soil that works...and it does. I prefer building my own soil, and the only side by side I did that was even close to the MG plant was another couple Manzano plants one in home made the other in MG...I can dig up those pics too if you wish. After reading the posts on here, I am definitely going to do some more research before I use them again.
Shane
I was keeping on topic, and commenting on MG soil...and my opinion. I never commented on Monsanto or their practices. I have other side by sides I have done with other soils and the same result. There are actually two in Fox Farms in the Pic and only one in MG. The soil itself works...no denying the results regarless of how "unscientific" my methods are. All three plants are on the same drip system all with 1gph drippers on the same schedule. I started the season trying numerous soil options and the MG performed most consistent for me and still does. This does not mean that I agree with their business practices, I have learned a ton reading the responses on this thread...and continue to.
Here is another "not so scientific" side by side...
I only had one of 5 Goat's Weeds in MG and the rest in Kellogg or Supersoil. This it best of the 4 vs the MG...
Here are the same two plants a little over a month later both in MG...you can see the recovery on the Kellogg plant so no blaming genetics...its responding to the soil.
I started without biased and was actually trying to find the best bang for the buck...like I mentioned before I had no idea about the business practices Monsanto used at the time, just trying to find soil that works...and it does. I prefer building my own soil, and the only side by side I did that was even close to the MG plant was another couple Manzano plants one in home made the other in MG...I can dig up those pics too if you wish. After reading the posts on here, I am definitely going to do some more research before I use them again.
Shane
Shane, I like your unbiased approach and you are a very skilled grower, but I'm not sure Kellogg is a good representation from an organic stand point. If I new nothing about the subject and had to choose one Kellogg vs MG it would be MG.
As far as the ops question goes, you bring a good point. As a turn key bag of soil that is cheap, MG is not bad.
Building your own soil is definitely the way to go. Some people may not like to do so, and would prefer to just amend there soil. At least I can amend patio plus without having to worry about the chemicals killing the stuff I am adding like mycorrhizae, or fresh worm castings.
Shane I like what you are doing here, using your personal experience as proof rather than just saying stuff. Even though your results dont match what I want them to. This is how it should work, as it is more productive and less disrespectful to each other.
This is my first year with peppers and I started way late. so I don't have a lot to show yet.
EDIT: I saw that you also used FF soil.. that makes this argument a lot harder
Nice plants Shane.
Pepper-Guru
eXtreme
That's it! I'm convinced! I'm converted! Next year its Miracle Gro for me!
Contradiction?
I may grow organic but I understand synthetics to where I'm not against them... With good practice any farm can be good to the enviroment whether it is organic or not.
I stated organic may taste different due to "the array of substances and organisms they contain when compared to standard synthetic fertilizer solutions"
"Now, that was one of the upsides of organics. One of the drawbacks of organic crop production vs. standard hydroponic fertilizer is that the majority of nutrients are not immediately available to the plant. This makes it very difficult to monitor and regulate concentration and ratios of elements available to the plant. If using premium hydroponic fertilizers, the vast majority of nutrients are immediately available in precise and measurable values. As a result, healthy vigorous plants can reach their genetic potential which includes characteristics such as taste and flavor. Plants do not differentiate the nutrients they absorb resulting from hydroponic or organic nutrient solutions. For example, nitrogen is typically available as NO[sub]3[/sub]- or NH[sub]4[/sub]+. It does not matter to the plant whether it came from guano or bottled nutrient. "
This may help understand more.
To not use mg soil because it is NOT organic is just funny.....
The plants might not care but talk to the micro organisms in the soil after a little while....oh wait they won't be there....they will be dead.
Using synthetic nutrients, the plants do not need to release carbon for the microbes to use and emit nutrients that the plant in turn uses. It's the circle of life and the synthetic nutes bypass that.
Haha Guru...That'll be the day. Not trying to convince or convert...just putting it out there. Stuff grows well in it for sure, as for how healthy the produce off the plants is...I can't comment.
Some folks have great luck with ProMix, but in order to get great results with it, you really have to understand what the plant is asking for and when. I really like their seed starter mix for sure. As far as straight out of the bag performance it has outperformed all soil I tested. I do have a correction to make...the original post I said were in Fox Farms are actually in Happy Frog...Have a bag of FF that will get tested with my next round of starts...
Really not an advocate for MG, just trying to answer the original question..."Is it worth it?" IMO performance wise the answer is yes. Their business practices I'm learning of as I read this topic have me rethinking my answer though...so please continue.
I tell you guys what. You have beat this topic to death with links, opinions, and "facts". I give up maybe SOMEBODY was convinced here. Enjoy and good luck in your pepper growing.
Remember your guys ways are "smart and couragous"
Maybe you guys can do an Obamacare type thing, force everyone to grow your way or pay an additional tax. Call it the 3/5 Organic Amendment. Let me know where to submit my fees.
Smart and Couragous.......
Remember your guys ways are "smart and couragous"
Maybe you guys can do an Obamacare type thing, force everyone to grow your way or pay an additional tax. Call it the 3/5 Organic Amendment. Let me know where to submit my fees.
Smart and Couragous.......
Why is that Cayennemist? You do know that Patio Plus is OMRI certified correct? I believe it and one other are, the rest may or may not contain biosolids.
What's the matter armac? Upset because as usual all you contributed to a thread is your usual sarcasm and apparent disdain for anything scientific.
Pepper-Guru
eXtreme
ArMac, just remember Obama and Romney both are big players in the Monsanto Gro/GMO thing. Goldman Sachs sign both of their checks. It goes up and further than that as well. Puppets on a string.
Im all about personal liberty, free of govt control, and free to make my own decisions(including what and how I grow) That goes for all people. This largely held, growing opinion about conventional consumerism/cultivation being influenced by very large corporations shouldn't be taken as a personal attack on anyone. More like a helping hand called information. We share these thoughts because we care. Not because we hate. Hate will kill a garden faster than any grower error or choice of grow medium.
Im all about personal liberty, free of govt control, and free to make my own decisions(including what and how I grow) That goes for all people. This largely held, growing opinion about conventional consumerism/cultivation being influenced by very large corporations shouldn't be taken as a personal attack on anyone. More like a helping hand called information. We share these thoughts because we care. Not because we hate. Hate will kill a garden faster than any grower error or choice of grow medium.
Ahhhh This is an Epic thread! but here is what I think came out of it thus far
Miracle Grow will work, but is limited to what it is. If you try to add Microbes to it you are wasting your time. Also Miracle Grow comes from a tyrannical corporation that wants to outlaw food gardening all together with the S.510 bill
So to recap, MG is a easy way out that will limit your options but give OK results.
@CarvinGuitarist yes Patio Plus is crap in more ways than one
Miracle Grow will work, but is limited to what it is. If you try to add Microbes to it you are wasting your time. Also Miracle Grow comes from a tyrannical corporation that wants to outlaw food gardening all together with the S.510 bill
So to recap, MG is a easy way out that will limit your options but give OK results.
@CarvinGuitarist yes Patio Plus is crap in more ways than one
Pepper-Guru
eXtreme
This is a really good thread Cmista! Getting people reading at least! Love THP! We just have to remember emotional zen sometimes 
Ok, my job here is done. Back to
Ok, my job here is done. Back to
all this excitement is giving me a half chub...
So when someone disagrees with your opinion you have to resort to ad hominem attacks? Wow, I thought we were all grown ups here.
That's nice but not very scientific when you have only one of each. Genetics plays a huge role and the one in MG may have better genetics.
Also, how do you know MG is not "bad?" If one looks into the history of Monsanto I would be suspect of anything they produce.
If you don't care that is fine as well as I am not eating what you grow.
On another note if MG was so great why do many serious canna growers have a contempt for it? Food for thought
You guys crack me up. The original topic was, "Is MG soil worth it" which is asking for opinions.
When people give their opinion that it is not good soil they get jumped on by others.
You guys need to have a couple tokes and chill.
Well, although I agree with opinions and everyone having their own....but calling someone lazy (simply because they don't want to go through the trouble of making their own mix or don't have the time or the place, etc...) is more than just an opinion, it's a personal attack.
If you don't walk to work, does that make you lazy? If I have to drive 60 miles round trip to get to work and back, does that mean I shouldn't sleep a minute and walk all day and night just so some buttwipe won't call me lazy?
Using words like superior is in a sense trying to make someone else feel or seem inferior.
Many people gave good honest opinions, others tried o use the question about MG for their enviroment protection BS which in reality they don't give a damn about.
The next time some buttwipe cries about enviroment, I want to see the horse he rides to work, and the many other crap in this world that destroy the enviroment not in their houses, etc...
As for others using the term easy. Many basketball players if asked..."How do you dunk the basketball?" will tell you it's easy. Yes, for them it is easy bt for COUNTLESS others, it is not.
I aced many math tests as a kid in elementary and in high school, for me it was easy but I knew how hard it was for others...I literally saw them struggle to figure out what took me virtually seconds to figure out in my mind. When they asked me....me being a pothead and sh*t, how I always got 100's in math, I told them the truth....GOD blessed me with a beautiful mind and that's why it was easy....FOR ME! I was told that I was lucky as are some of you that have the luxury that many others don't and even if they did, not everybody has a green thumb, not everybody knows how to listen to their plants thus they don't know how to love their plants. Learning all this as a newbie takes time, assuming everybody is on the same page is stupid and dumb. Not taking the time to show them but instead yell at them because they posted in the wrong section, etc....I think that isn't polite. Not everybody is a computer wiz, not everybody is internet savvy, etc....
If you don't want to take the time to show them, there's no need to be unpolite to them just because they're behind some of us others, etc... Simply not replying would be the most polite way of going about it.
I've been a member of a zillion sites and they are always all the same...there's always someone crying about others posting in wrong sections, asking the same question again, etc... If you're not a mod, please just stay out of it if you have nothing good to say.
~Mike
Really, somebody brought politics into this thread. LMAO!
I'm poor, it really doesn't matter who the Pres is cause I'll always be more and I'm not gonna kill myself to try to get rich. Accept who you are, if whoever is Pres at the time changes who you are, you have bigger problems than some company that sells soil.
By the way, there is not a single buttwipe in this country or any other country that is worthy of my vote...since politics was brought into this, I thought I'd speak my mind on that as well. All politicians are crooked as are all cops, it's just some are more deeply corrupt than others. Ain't a singl eperson in this world that can tell me I am wrong because I know for a fact that every cop or politician has used their position one way or another in a way that it wasn't intended. Like State Troopers speeding home, fellow cops pulling over another cop and excorting home instead of arresting him, etc...
And before someone brings religion into it, I don't claim any religion, either. I do believe in GOD, though.
Capsicum
Banned
just like Chevey and Pontiac
http://thescottsmira...r_business.html
@Cap
Show me proof of your (NO[sub]3[/sub]- or NH[sub]4[/sub]+) bull shit, like a doctoral Theseus that has been judged by a group of non bias peers.
Not simplyhydroponcs.com
"So-called natural or organic plant foods aren't necessarily better for your plants than synthetic plant foods. Your plants can't tell the difference. The nutrients are exactly the same at the molecular level."
It is science. It is not my fault you can't understand.
"The nutrients are exactly the same at the molecular level"
If you can't understand that then it is time to learn some science.
I see a thread lock coming. Oh well, this forum's usefulness to me personally is dwindling anyhow.
DatilDaddy
Banned
IBTL 
It is science. It is not my fault you can't understand.
"The nutrients are exactly the same at the molecular level"
If you can't understand that then it is time to learn some science.
Thats not nice...
"The nutrients are exactly the same at the molecular level," according to who?
Show me proof of your (NO[sub]3[/sub]- or NH[sub]4[/sub]+) like a doctoral Theseus that has been judged by a group of non bias peers
Not simplyhydroponcs.com
You cant, because it isn't true. Don't say things like "you cant understand" that is rude and non productive. Lets keep this respectful and polite.
Notice STC and I disagree, but he can put up an argument that is not condescending or rude. Even though I disagree with him, I respect him that much more for being polite.
Here is an example of a Reliable source.
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/ar/archive/may04/fungi0504.pdf
or even better
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/35861/PDF
or
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/18113/PDF
or
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/07/10/us-farming-organic-idUSN1036065820070710
or
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/05/080528102904.htm
Honestly Even these links are not safe from Bias. As I have pointed out already here on THP, the Federal government employes many ex Monsanto employees.
Capsicum
Banned
Thats not nice...
"The nutrients are exactly the same at the molecular level," according to who?
Show me proof of your (NO[sub]3[/sub]- or NH[sub]4[/sub]+) like a doctoral Theseus that has been judged by a group of non bias peers
Not simplyhydroponcs.com
You cant, because it isn't true. Don't say things like "you cant understand" that is rude and non productive. Lets keep this respectful and polite.
Notice STC and I disagree, but he can put up an argument that is not condescending or rude. Even though I disagree with him, I respect him that much more for being polite.
It is science so there is no opinions. I was not being rude by saying "you can't understand".If I did not understand I would want someone to explain the science behind it, I would not be questioning science like you are.
Once the organics are broken down by microorganisms they become elemental form, at that point they are the same thing as a synthetic fertilizer.
NO[sub]3[/sub]- or NH[sub]4[/sub]+ is an example. That is what the plant uptakes, that element is the SAME from organic or not.
Plants uptake elements. The molecules of the hydrocarbon chains in organics are too large, they need to be broken down into elemental form by soil life.The elements are the same from the organic (NO[sub]3[/sub]- or NH[sub]4[/sub]+ as the example). Where ever the nutrients came from they are all in elemental form and soluble , whether they came from worm castings or a synthetic fertilizer.