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Planting by the moon

thanks for the compliment UZ...but, there are a lot wiser folks on this forum than I and I have learned a bunch from them... :)

Hot Stuff, I reckon we can't convert UltraZelda...roflmao

I know that this southern boy will follow what I was taught...and as you say UZ...it works pretty well for me...

Oh yeah, what was this thread about anyway...

got it...best time this month...so who all planted on the 10th?....I planted 4 trays on the 10th and 4 on the 12th...

lots of information passed along here and I, for one am thankful for the planting tables...didn't have any printed off and now, I have several copies...
 
yup...I am a subscriber...that should tell you something..

http://www.almanac.com/content/contact-us-web-site-help?utm_source=Almanac+Companion&utm_campaign=d0e14c90c7-Companion_January_13_2011&utm_medium=email
 
Zelda you seem to be convinced that the moon's position can have no effect on planting seeds. What is the scientific evidence that proves there is no connection? There is more evidence pointing to a link, namely many years of observation of planting times and crop results. The only reason you have for saying there is no causal link between the moon and planting times is that you cannot conceive of a reason. I think that your certainty based on zero evidence shows a lack of imagination. Science would be nothing if people hadn't observed correlating effects, theorised a reason and performed experiments. No one in this thread is asserting a reason why planting by the moon works other than saying that it works. You should do your own experiments and report the results, I would be interested to see them whatever they say.
 
Example: An asteroid blasts into the moon and either dislodges it from the Earth's gravitational pull or disintegrates it, causing a major blastwave and interfering with Earth's normal rotational/revolution speeds. Similarly, if a large enough asteroid slams into the planet at just the right angle to knock the Earth's axis (ie. hits one of the poles), assuming it's not major enough to kill us all (by damaging the planet's gravity, allowing the atmosphere to slowly dissipate into space or something), the change in axis would need to be considered.


I don't think it would matter what we believe if either of those two things happened, we wouldnt be doing much chilli growing for a long while.
 
Zelda you seem to be convinced that the moon's position can have no effect on planting seeds. ... There is more evidence pointing to a link, namely many years of observation of planting times and crop results.
As far as *literally* changing the outcome of germination rates and drastically changing an outcome of growth or making sweeping changes in the climate of the entire world (which would, in fact, affect plant growth)... that's exactly what I'm saying. But re-read my posts, I'm talking more about the effect of the whole system being relatively fragile and possible to be sent way out of whack. I have pointed out several times that differences in the gravity and speed of rotation/revolution of the Earth or its moon can be caused by collisions or even close-encounters (ie. the gravity) of other objects.

This can cause side-effects such as changing the Earth's expected position in orbit, its tilt, etc.--and same with the moon if it were to happen to it, or be caught by the object's gravity. Either way, this type of situation can affect this "millennia-old fact" (or belief?) and turn it on its nose. How many times does this have to be reiterated? I'm beginning to sound like a broken record here, and by now I'm repeating and trying to clarify the same thing over and over more than I'm actually adding anything to the conversation...

As the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article on pseudo-science I mentioned points out:

"Pseudoscience is a claim, belief, or practice which is presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific methodology, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status. Pseudoscience is often characterized by the use of vague, exaggerated or unprovable claims, an over-reliance on confirmation rather than rigorous attempts at refutation, a lack of openness to evaluation by other experts, and a general absence of systematic processes to rationally develop theories. The term "pseudoscience" is inherently pejorative, because it suggests that something is being inaccurately or deceptively portrayed as science. Accordingly, those labeled as practicing or advocating pseudoscience normally dispute the characterization."

Especially notice the part that says that pseudo-science is characterized by "an over-reliance on confirmation rather than rigorous attempts at refutation" (among other things), which is EXACTLY what this is. Just because it's happened happened once means that it must happen again, under all circumstances, right? No need to consider any "what-ifs"--if it has been recognized as happening on many occasions for 3000 years, it'll happen for all eternity! According to this belief, sure--but it's not an accurate way of looking at reality.

To real science, this line of thinking is unacceptable. You might be better able to predict a future plant growth-changing outcome in case of some odd event with another space body if you actually take the possibility of that happening into account and monitor any approaching objects. I'm stating (yet again...) that this whole belief *can* be changed drastically by certain (admittedly major, yet likely slim-chance) scenarios, or at least after a very long amount of time, even if nothing out of the ordinary happens.

What is the scientific evidence that proves there is no connection? ... The only reason you have for saying there is no causal link between the moon and planting times is that you cannot conceive of a reason. I think that your certainty based on zero evidence shows a lack of imagination.
Have you actually been reading what I've been saying? :crazy:
 
The moon does hold sway over certain phenomena here on earth.

Because of it's gravitational pull the moon influences the coastal tides.

And maverick geologist Jim Berkland has predicted earthquakes well in advance by observing moon cycles and the relative positioning of the moon in relation to the earth, due to the elliptical orbit of the moon around the earth.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0523_050523_moonquake.html

Skeptics have cast doubt on the theory, though they do concede that the earth's gravitationl pull, does indeed cause moonquakes on the earth's largest natural satellite.

So there could be something to planting by the moon's cycles.

Perhaps one day we'll understand more about this.

But it is never a good idea to just dismiss something out of hand, simply because we do not understand it fully.

That is sometimes where the ignorance of science shows it's real arrogance.

Time and time again, the scientific establishment has scoffed at, ridiculed and tried to marginalize new ideas, that then later, once proven, these same scoffed at ideas were adopted and embraced as the new norm and accepted stauts quo theories in their fields of study.

dvg
 
dvg: Didn't I mention several times that if something drastic occurred, like the moon somehow being forcefully exiled out of orbit of the Earth, it could prove this millennia-old belief null and void? I believe I did... of course both the Earth and its moon both have their own gravities, and are playing a little celestial game of tug-of-war with each other...

My argument is mostly about the *phase* of the moon, which is relative and of no real concern/importance (ie., different on a particular night depending on where in the world you are looking up at the sky from, or even as viewed from other planets or objects in the solar system), and the location of the moon relative to a few stars hundreds of light years away--both being absolutely pointless metrics for planning anything seriously.

I mean, come on... Pisces is a couple of imaginary fish in outer space if you connect the dots (stars). At least... somehow... that's what it's supposed to be. How anyone came up with that and what drugs they were on, I don't know (but I wish I did, although unfortunately they're probably illegal today...). And how that has anything to do with the Universe or our own solar system, let alone this planet... who knows. And its connection with the moon, even not considering its phase as seen from Earth at a given time... beats the hell out of me.
 
UltraZelda64, I wasn't trying to prove anybody right or wrong here.

My point was to try to keep an open mind, when possible.

If fact, it's to our advantage to also have a skeptical mind.

But sometimes trying to keep an open mind as well as being vigilantly skeptical at the same time is a tug of war in itself.;)

dvg
 
I would be the first to admit that if the orbit or mass of the earth, moon and or sun were to drastically change, then new observations would have to be made.

But being that the precession of the stars is like 1 degree in a predictable manner every 75 years, the moon widening it's orbit predictably, what is it, an inch every year, and yet we still get the same results says a lot.

I guess you need a study by a university to affirm it? Tell me, what do you think about Ben Franklin as a scientist. You know that silly guy who invented eye glasses, toothbrushes, a manner to conduct electricity and a number of other things?
 
Tell me, what do you think about Ben Franklin as a scientist.
Well, he came up with some important discoveries. And any guy crazy enough to go flying a kite with a key attached during a thunderstorm as one of his experiments on conducting electricity gets my respect. LOL. I honestly have never read in great detail about him, though.

As one of the Founding Fathers of the US, he also served a major non-scientific role, including the drafting of the Declaration of Independence. It's just disgusting what people, and especially corporations, have done to shit on everything these guys did, everything they stood for, destroy the freedoms they fought for, all in the name of money and power and corporate greed... I bet he's been spending the last century or more rolling in his grave. But really, that's going seriously off-topic, so I'll leave it at that.

There's really no specific scientists that I can recall being so interested in that I did some extensive research on. Specific people usually just aren't my interest for the most part. I tend to remember their names and the major discoveries they made, but tend to forget who did what and mix them up. Some scientists may have been more influential to others or made more major discoveries, but for the most part they all have their ups and downs. They all just have different ratios of ups vs. downs. Hell, I could probably tell you more about Shigeru Miyamoto than any specific scientist. :shocked: [Nah, actually, not any more; it's been years since I read about him even, and I forgot most everything I knew...]
 
I don't think there is anything I can communicate in this. Not sure when planting seeds at a certain moon position and phase became asteroids crashing into the earth etc. Each to his own I suppose. At least we theoretically could all meet up and enjoy growing and eating Chillies together. Despite what differences we think about planting by the moon... we all burn the same :mouthonfire:
 
UZ...you want research and scientific proof....lifted from here...I realize this research is for root crops and am now trying to find if there is any done on above ground crops..

http://kaykeys.net/spirit/earthspirituality/moon/moonseed.html

"The time at which a seed is sown is the beginning of its life cycle. Final plant yield, as every gardener knows, is crucially affected by the conditions encountered by the seed....

The person most responsible for formal experimentation in this area is Maria Thun, whose research on her farm in Darmstadt, Germany, has been financially supported by a group of biodynamic farmers.

In 1952, Thun developed a method of sowing a fixed number of crop rows over a sidereal month. The term sidereal refers to the position of the moon in relationship to the stars or constellations in the sky behind it. In other words, Maria Thun sowed according to varying phases of the lunar cycle. Once the crop came to maturity, it was weighed and studied, and the results were recorded. Thun's findings were accumulated over a ten-year period from 1952 to 1962. The crop Thun chose to study initially was potatoes; subsequently she studied not only other root crops but also leaf crops, fruit-bearers and flowers.

Thun's results were surprising. She discovered that if potatoes were planted when the moon was in the constellations of Taurus, Capricorn or Virgo (traditionally termed "root days"), the crop was more prolific than if she planted when the moon was positioned in other constellations of the zodiac belt. After some thought, she concluded that potatoes did better if planted while the moon was clearly positioned in earth signs than at any other time. Potato crops planted when the moon was positioned in the constellations Cancer, Scorpio or Pisces--the water signs of the zodiac--did poorly.

The results of Thun's studies fascinated another experimenter in Germany. Graf repeated her method from 1973 to 1975, this time using many different types of soils, and planting radishes as well as potatoes. Graf discovered that sowing on root days affected positively the growth and production of crops, and got best result when using chemically untreated, organic soils.

In 1976, Kollerstrom and Muntz, Sussex market gardeners, repeated the experiments of Graf and Thun and gained a 45% increase in yield for crops sown on root days. Conducted over a period of two months, their study did not show that the phase of the moon, waxing or waning, made as much difference as the moon's placement in the sky at the time of sowing.

The effect of the phases of the moon on seed germination and growth was first studied by L. Kolisko in 1930. Using wheat, Kolisko found that seeds germinated faster and more prolifically when sown at the full moon. The new moon gave him the most unsuccessful results. Later experiments on cress confirmed Kolisko's findings. Recent studies at Northwestern University, conducted by Professor F. Brown, have shown that, even under equal temperatures, seedlings absorb more water at the full moon than at the new moon. The findings lend credibility to adages that recommend harvesting at full moon. It seems plants have less water content at the new moon phase. Professor Brown went so far as to test plants in a darkened laboratory where they would have no direct access to effects of sun or moon. The plants still responded to the moon phases.

Other experiments have been conducted at Wichita State University and at Tulane University. All have achieved the same results. Experimentation indicates that seeds sown just before or around the full moon have a higher rate and speed of germination than those sown at the new moon because seeds are able to absorb more water at the full moon...."
 
AJ: Great, so someone attempted to plant at different times based on the moon phase and position against the stars to try to "prove" something. The article brought up some valid points (especially toward the beginning), and plenty of unsubstantiated BS like what I've argued about since the beginning. For example, I think the "full moon" or "moon in Taurus, Capricorn or Virgo" idea of making healthier plants is is nuts. Who would've guessed?

Giving this whole moon theory from the article a slight benefit of the doubt, maybe there were some rather chilly winds blowing in from somewhere (maybe originating from the Antarctica?). Maybe those winds were, in fact, at least partially a result of the moon as the article suggests--which is possible to an extent. Or dare I say it, these winds could have been turned around by the Earth's spin on its axis or by cutting into mountains, or even flung their way by a hurricane somewhere further from the equator. But if this was the case, it would be all about the moon's pull on the Earth, and absolutely nothing to do with how the moon appears to be lit from here; how much the planet is blocking sunlight from reaching its moon. And certainly nothing to do with the mentioned constellations.

I also agree with the article that the pull of the moon can cause rain in an area by the accumulation and formation of precipitation clouds, that sounds plausible. It also claims that (if I understood it correctly) just because the moon's gravity causes tides, it can somehow interact with the water molecules in the soil. Okay, in a way, sure it probably can--well, maybe, anyway. But it likely wouldn't cause some huge difference, and in fact would likely not make a noticeable difference at all. It's liquids vs. liquid-containing solids here; they react differently.

This is just like this whole argument from the beginning to begin with: Relying on the old "it happened consistently in the past, it'll probably happen this way forever into the future". Sure, they're doing experiments on planting at different times based on the signs of the moon and distant sky, which is partially admirable. But they seem to use these as part of their "guides" or "proof". The main difference is that this article brings up some convincingly possible local (sun and moon, orbital and gravitational) reasons for explaining some weather patterns. Where it fails is by even considering that the phase of the moon (ie. the amount of sunlight blocked by the Earth from hitting the moon) and some made-up images in space like Taurus, Capricorn, Virgo, Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces have anything to do with it.

Really, why am I still here? I'm getting burnt out on the subject. Tired of reading, typing and thinking about it. It's becoming a chore, instead of something interesting. LOL. Admittedly, because of that I skimmed through the article, and my thinking is getting fuzzy and it's getting difficult to formulate it into words. In fact, I'm doing less proof-reading on this one too, so don't expect to take this 100% accurately (I probably made mistakes for sure in this post, glaring omissions, and missed tons of stuff to comment on/disagree with from the article). But I think my thoughts on the subject are pretty much explained in a broad way earlier in this topic.

Once again, it all goes back to what I've been saying all along: Go by local events within the solar system regarding orbits and gravities of our planet and other nearby bodies, especially the moon. Don't look out to the stars expecting something specific to happen. This article/study at least gets half of that right.
 
Where it fails is by even considering that the phase of the moon (ie. the amount of sunlight blocked by the Earth from hitting the moon) and some made-up images in space like Taurus, Capricorn, Virgo, Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces have anything to do with it.

Ya can't argue with someone that believes the moon's phases are caused as a result of light being blocked by the earth. :eek:
 
Ya can't argue with someone that believes the moon's phases are caused as a result of light being blocked by the earth. :eek:
You mean like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_phase

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1000&bih=714&q=cause+of+moon+phases&aq=f&aqi=g1g-v1&aql=&oq=

Edit: Shit, yeah, I'm getting burned out. [You can't say you didn't read the disclaimer in that post...] I'm mixing up eclipses with phases. :silenced: Where the hell's the "smack self upside the head" smiley when you need one?
 
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