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Planting by the moon

You never opened a farmer's almanac then. It's based on thousand of years of observations. Let's see, observations+repeatable results=science.
Nope, never did. And if it's full this kind of "facts", I'd be extra cautious in what I choose to believe from it. Still, it might prove to be an entertaining/amusing read which I'm sure at least contains *some* good guidelines for gardening.

And various things in the Universe change, ever so little, over time. Things like the various planets, moons, and other objects' exact rotation and revolution times can be affected by various things such as gravitational interaction with a nearby planet or satellite, or even a volcanic eruption or quake on the object itself. Even a close encounter with an occasional massive meteor (or impact of a meteorite) could set things off. Further out, stars move slightly (by our perception here on Earth) over the course of a century as well, and by extension the constellations move as well. Entire galaxies move (generally away from each other) and even collide/merge sometimes. New stars and other objects emerge from the remnants of nebulae.

Even right here on Earth, the various ice ages the planet has gone through in its few billion years of existence have proven just how well this kind of data can be trusted... and that's an extreme example. I don't think you'll get any peppers if you sow seeds on that "special day" when the moon is in its first quarter or whatever in some made-up constellation if you're in an ice age, and I seriously doubt it would be a good way to gauge your activities in 2011. And I'm sure moon phase and constellations had nothing do to with these ice ages on Earth. This is also why I don't believe in the scare of "global warming". The planet's climates have shifted and drastically changed numerous times since its formation with or without us humans interfering and will continue to do so, and looking at steadily increasing temperatures over the last century two or so is a poor way to "prove" anything as it ignores this fact. Some day in the future, we'll be accusing each other of "global cooling" (and eventually freezing). What will be the reason then, over-reliance on electric motors instead of internal combustion engines?

Following something like a certain moon phase or the position of an object in some made-up "constellation" in the sky to plan something like the perfect germination-starting date for peppers sounds insane to me. It's as believable as man turning into a werewolf under a full moon. Or the idea that a groundhog can predict the near-future Spring weather based on what it does when it sees its shadow one day after awakening from its hibernation. It sounds about as factually accurate and based on truths as a certain major religion and related religions from thousands of years ago (not to mention all those unrelated ones). I would look to this kind of "information" for amusement, not for truthful facts to help make the decisions of actual planning of any kind whatsoever.

The Universe is pretty much unpredictable. However, today, there are much better and more accurate ways to predict local events (ie. within the solar system and the Earth itself) than there were way back then--so I see clinging onto a system from thousands of years ago as completely unnecessary. But still, nothing is 100% foolproof. Really, looking as you would through a magnifying glass at the moon in front of a small group of visible stars countless light years into space is quite antiquated for determining local events. I would go so far as to call it nonsense.
 
5-6 February - here is a complete list of dates

http://www.farmersalmanac.com/calendar/gardening/
So, what happens if I plant some seeds today, January 12? Just bad luck, the same thing that walking under a ladder or breaking a mirror is supposed to bring (but never has)? Or some magical change in the speed of growth of the plant somehow, causing it to not be ready or grow too fast for my determined plant-out date? What if they're planted when the sun's out? Or if they're started tonight but it's cloudy, or they're started in a room without windows so the plants don't get any moon/starlight? What if my seeds are Cannabis, not Capsicum? Or my clocks are off?

I'm sorry, but this all sounds crazy to me. :crazy: I can't imagine any of this stuff having any basis on reality, whether outside a cave or something thousands of years ago near Lake Titicaca or the Nile River, or in present-day Ohio--and whether starting indoors or outdoors. The more I read of this thread, the more I ask myself... WTF?

Dang it! Missed it!
Nah, I don't think you missed anything.
 
Well to each his own. Of course no said it was predicting global warming or cooling or ice ages.

Just that if you're in an ice age and you want to know when the best time to plant is, you may want to take notice of what has worked in the past with the most success.

And that's all it is. About 6000 years of observations, across continents and cultures all observing the same thing and reporting the same results.

Usually we call that science. You know, when you make observations, repeat the same thing and get the same results. And yes, I believe we take into account the precession of the stars and constellations contained therein.
 
So, what happens if I plant some seeds today, January 12? Just bad luck, the same thing that walking under a ladder or breaking a mirror is supposed to bring (but never has)? Or some magical change in the speed of growth of the plant somehow, causing it to not be ready or grow too fast for my determined plant-out date? What if they're planted when the sun's out? Or if they're started to night but it's cloudy, or they're started in a room without windows so the plants don't get any moon/starlight? What if my seeds are Cannabis, not Capsicum? Or my clocks are off?

I'm sorry, but this all sounds crazy to me. :crazy: I can't imagine any of this stuff having any basis on reality, whether outside a cave or something thousands of years ago near Lake Titicaca, or on present-day Ohio--and whether starting indoors or outdoors. The more I read of this thread, the more I ask myself... WTF?


Nah, I don't think you missed anything.

It's not that it won't germinate at all. It's about maximizing the chances of good germination and growth of the plants.

No basis in reality? So do think the moon going through predictable phases is crazy? Do you think it predictably through different signs is crazy?

Why it is certainly possible that the observations over the last 6000+ years are purely incidental to some other non-observable or non-observed causes which happened co-relatively, I think it's crazy to discount it because "I" don't like something. What exactly is your prejudice in this?
 
It's not that it won't germinate at all. It's about maximizing the chances of good germination and growth of the plants.
That sounds more like skill, equipment and setup to me. And climate, whether natural or artifical (indoors with artificial heating and light). Not luck, which is what this whole idea you're following sounds like.

No basis in reality? So do think the moon going through predictable phases is crazy? Do you think it predictably through different signs is crazy?
That involves the earth's revolution around the sun and the moon's revolution around the earth which, as I said, could change in a huge way if a large enough asteroid were to come crashing down on either object.

Why it is certainly possible that the observations over the last 6000+ years are purely incidental to some other non-observable or non-observed causes which happened co-relatively, I think it's crazy to discount it because "I" don't like something. What exactly is your prejudice in this?
It sounds like superstition to me, baseless fact, that's all. Nothing more than a baseless one-time observation, which may only *seem* to hold true because of the seemingly stationary stars from the point of view from the Earth and the relatively low amount of change in revolution speeds of the Earth and moon. Something that will not always hold true. Someone thousands of years ago probably just looked up at the sky on the nice, calm spring night after planting and said, "Ah, look--the moon is inside Pisces! And it's in its first quarter! I think I'm gonna have a good year!," and then had a favorable year in terms of general local weather conditions, and the rest is history... [Not saying that this *is* what happened, but it's probably something not too far off...].

Bet it won't be accurate after a collision, or after a million years if there are still humans or some other higher animal around at the time to cultivate plants... whichever comes first.
 
I can't say I'm waiting for that collision. It's been working for the last 6000+ years.

Planting just any old time sounds more like depending on luck to me.
 
Planting just any old time sounds more like depending on luck to me.
If you believe that, then I don't know why you believe in this whole planting-by-moon-phase thing to begin with. They kind of contradict.

In a way I can agree with you here, but not fully. Some years may be extra cloudy and rainy, occasionally extra windy (a few years ago was especially bad, I think it was because of a hurricane on the east coast if I remember right, can't remember if I was growing plants that year though...). But the variation in weather patterns from year to year, at least here, doesn't seem to ever stray *too* far off from the usual. At least, not in the warmer months. In the winter... it can get pretty extreme, or relatively mild (emphasis on "relatively"). Much of the "bad luck" from high winds and water-based disease later in the season, I figure, can easily be removed by growing them in pots and having a safe haven for them when downpours and high winds are on the forecast as a possibility--which I found works extremely well (with the requirements that the plants need to be watched more closely for soil moisture). It just goes back to, as I said, nothing is 100% foolproof.

Another word for the majority of "bad luck" I've had over the years (that wasn't my own mistake/fault) was climate. Or pests. (Insects, mites, animals.)
 
If you believe that, then I don't know why you believe in this whole planting-by-moon-phase thing to begin with. They kind of contradict.

That's only if you think planting by the moon is planting just any old time. I don't call it luck, I call it maximizing your potential using millenial old methods

You can still plant at other times and I wouldn't tell someone don't plant if you can't plant at the optimal times, but if you can plant at optimal times why wouldn't you?

It is interesting to note that peppers are said to be best in the 2nd quarter of the moon. It is also interesting that the best signs for peppers which occur in the 2nd quarter occur in the spring. :)
 
Just because no one understands why the effect happens, doesn't mean there isn't an understandable reason, waiting to be understood.

Think about penicillin. The idea of using mould and fungi to treat diseases seems illogical because it is symbolic of decay. I could go on and on with examples like this.

The idea of the moon and its position in the sky affecting plant growth seems as ludicrous as the moon affecting the tides once did. The evidence pointed to a connection and the mechanism was rationalised afterwards. The evidence strongly points to a connection between planting, germination and the moon but we haven't discovered how they are connected.

The big incorrect assertion being expressed in this thread is that we can and do understand everything.

edit: We could argue about the why forever. Or.. we could grow lots of Chillies :cool:
 
well, this is a quote from Second Hand Lions that Robert Duvall spoke to "the boy"...and I believe it firmly...doesn't matter who believes it or not...specifically the last two sentences.

"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in."
 
well, this is a quote from Second Hand Lions that Robert Duvall spoke to "the boy"...and I believe it firmly...doesn't matter who believes it or not...specifically the last two sentences.

"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honor, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this, that love... true love never dies. You remember that, boy. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in."


+1
 
I know I'm new here but the thread-starter just put something out there as an "FYI". Seems he's getting assailed for not toeing-the-line scientifically. If one doesn't like the premise, there are other threads. Seems fruitless (pun intended) to stick @ and argue.

As an aside- the Farmers Almanac was widely used by farmers as 'the gospel' of planting for quite some time and many of the Framers of the U.S. gov't were Mason's who, correct me if I'm wrong, consulted astrology or astronomy(?) as a bedrock of their beliefs. Just sayin.....
 
That's only if you think planting by the moon is planting just any old time. I don't call it luck, I call it maximizing your potential using millenial old methods
Sorry. Once again, I call that superstition.

You can still plant at other times and I wouldn't tell someone don't plant if you can't plant at the optimal times, but if you can plant at optimal times why wouldn't you?

It is interesting to note that peppers are said to be best in the 2nd quarter of the moon. It is also interesting that the best signs for peppers which occur in the 2nd quarter occur in the spring.
Again, I see no way some "connection" can be made, of a specific phase of the moon as seen here from the Earth being in between a few stars visible from countless light years away. It's impossible for me to call something determined by that as an "optimal time". "Lucky time" maybe since you're betting on it with very little scientific basis, but not "optimal".

As I mentioned before, why not stick with what is more likely to actually be reliable, given any possible changes in the Earth's velocity: the planet's position in its orbit around the sun as well as its tilt, and any major changes in speed taken into account. That is something that is far more scientific, and possible today with modern technology. Example: An asteroid blasts into the moon and either dislodges it from the Earth's gravitational pull or disintegrates it, causing a major blastwave and interfering with Earth's normal rotational/revolution speeds. Similarly, if a large enough asteroid slams into the planet at just the right angle to knock the Earth's axis (ie. hits one of the poles), assuming it's not major enough to kill us all (by damaging the planet's gravity, allowing the atmosphere to slowly dissipate into space or something), the change in axis would need to be considered.

It would just make far more sense from a scientific perspective to look at the planet in its position within orbit of the sun. Maybe planting on a certain moon phase gives you some kind of weird supernatural pleasure, whatever, fine. But to look to a few Earth-visible stars light years away for guidance has no scientifically logical or accurate meaning whatsoever. Just look within the solar system; there is no need to look farther out. Venus is irrelevant for the most part. So is Mars. And the outer gas giants are even more irrelevant. The moon can be looked into as megamoo pointed out if you really believe tidal waves and its gravitational pull on the Earth can make much of a difference (who knows, sounds far more plausible to have *some* kind of effect, even if minuscule, than distant stars or even supernova explosions). In this case, the moon's revolution (place in orbit around the Earth) would likely be more useful than its phase as seen from Earth, which is actually relative... it might be seen at a slightly different phase from my house tonight than, for example, some place in Germany, assuming a clear night in both places. But looking to Pisces for guidance? Psssch...

A quick look in Stellarium shows that the main Earth-visible stars that make up the constellation Pisces are anywhere from ~100 to 400+ light years away from Earth. I hardly expect anything even near that distance to effect anything here on Earth in any significant way (other than illuminating the sky a bit at night, assuming you're in an area with a low enough amount of light pollution to be able to see them). That is freakin' CRAZY--as the name suggests, one light year is the total distance light travels in a full year (consider it takes eight MINUTES just for the sun's light to get to Earth). And light travels insanely fast compared to anything else known currently (it took around 7 *years* for Cassini-Huygens to get from here to its orbit around Saturn, and that's even with the help of several gravitational assists from the orbits of other planets in the solar system...).

Think about penicillin. The idea of using mould and fungi to treat diseases seems illogical because it is symbolic of decay. I could go on and on with examples like this.

The idea of the moon and its position in the sky affecting plant growth seems as ludicrous as the moon affecting the tides once did. The evidence pointed to a connection and the mechanism was rationalised afterwards. The evidence strongly points to a connection between planting, germination and the moon but we haven't discovered how they are connected.
No, not really. The moon is small compared to the Earth, but it's not just some tiny pebble in comparison. It has a decent mass and its own respectable gravity. It's in orbit, bound by the Earth's gravitational pull, swinging around the planet. Therefore they interact. No big surprise, given that there is a scientific explanation for it doing so (physics).

As for penicillin, it's right here, in this world, and it has been well studied and explained thoroughly. Scientists have examined it in labs, done tests with it, seen exactly how it reacted, and noted the effects and what it did. People have been using it in the real world for decades now, seeing it have the same effects that it had shown to have in the lab.

"Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in."
The way I see it, you don't need to "believe" something if it's true. If something can't be confirmed as fact... that's when you need to force yourself to "believe" it. :)

For example, if some "God" were known to, in fact, really exist, people wouldn't need to "believe" in it. They would *know* it. Just an example...

Either way, my point is clear, I've said enough. I still believe going by such an antiquated "system" is lunacy, but I'm done in this thread.



But before I go... I think this is relevant enough to be helpful for people interested in astronomy and may even be helpful to those people who actually believe in this stuff. I mentioned Stellarium earlier in this post. It's an open-source planetarium program available as a package in many Linux distributions with Windows and Mac versions at their site. It uses OpenGL (not sure about the Windows version, probably DirectX?) to show the sky as a 3D rendering, just as you see it from any point on Earth and at any time. I'm not affiliated with the project in any way (I haven't even posted a single topic in their forums), I just think it's a great program, and I have sent this thread far enough off-topic that I figured mentioning it might get back to the core of the original topic since it can be used as a tool to... well, track the moon against the stars and constellations. It doesn't do moon phases so far though (you'd need an online service or another program like HomePlanet, which is only available as a Windows program, to do that). But either way, here is the site if anyone is interested:

http://www.stellarium.org/
 
so when Columbus believed the world was not flat, he was gonna fall off when he reached a point out there somewhere...there was no proof that the world was round...

your arguments are OK...there are just of some us that like to take a leap of faith because our ancestors...my father, grandfather, great grandfather...and so on..planted with the signs...and I guarantee you they were a lot more wise than I am...
 
I knew it was just a matter of time before this happened. UZ64, I don't think this is the place to debate the science. Most of us here appreciate the information hot stuff provided and may choose to use it when we start seeds. I don't want to argue it with you here. If you want to talk about science why don't you do a seed starting experiment of your own? Please take it to a separate thread, and let us keep the discussion here on topic.
 
your arguments are OK...there are just of some us that like to take a leap of faith because our ancestors...my father, grandfather, great grandfather...and so on..planted with the signs...and I guarantee you they were a lot more wise than I am...
Well, you are pretty damn wise yourself when it comes to growing peppers. I can say that for sure. I just don't think the fact that you may choose to follow astrological signs has anything to do with it. I would say it's more along the lines of good old-fashioned trial-and-error, raw skill and experience. Timing is only part of it, and there is plenty of room for error. :)
 
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science?show=0&t=1294951964

Please note 3 a & b

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scientific%20method

And if you apply how planting according to the moon, its phases and where it is in the sky, the you will see that for the last 6000+ years it follows scientific method. It is not superstition.

Now I'm not going to say the constellation Pisces causes anything. But when the moon happens to be in that part of the sky, in the 1st and 2nd quarter, things on earth are optimal for planting above ground fruit bearing plants as observed those who have planted then and who have tried planting at other times.
 
I hate to pop back in here with even more criticism/disagreement (haven't I done that enough? LOL), but you keep popping in saying that this stuff is scientific, that it's "real" science because it supposedly follows the scientific method (which it doesn't; just read the first paragraph in the Wikipedia article on pseudo-science linked below), so...

Dictionary definitions (especially revealing is the second definition of pseudo-science, which even lists astrology as an example):
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pseudo-science
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pseudo-science

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/astrology
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/astrology

Notice the wording, "supposed," in Merriam-Webster's definition of astrology. Their own definition of supposed:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/supposed

Full-length encyclopedia articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology

Much of gardening is based on scientific knowledge and geography (a branch of science), but certainly not astrology. That is all I have left to add about the subject itself. Take it as you will.
 
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